Here's some simple arithmatic for you: Jordan + Pippen + Grant/Kukoc & Rodman = Championship Jordan + Pippen (1995) = No Championship Wizards = Crap Wizards + Jordan = Still Crap Jordan = Good Shaq = Skilless Neanderthal Wilt = GOD
The real question is - have you seen the old Celtics play? I saw the games in real time and also on "The NBA's Greatest Games" ON NBA.com TV - I suggest you try the latter. And FYI, there never has been a defensive three seconds until this past season. Total BS. Funny how you want to impress us with your basketball knowledge and you totally ignore the great non-Celtics of that era like Oscar Robertson (the only player in league history to average a triple double), Elgin Baylor, Jerrry West (the man who was chosen as the figure in the NBA logo), Bob Pettit, Dolph Schayes (father of Danny), Bill Bradley (entered the league in '67 after a Rhodes scholarship at Oxford), Nate Thurmond (member of the 50 All Time Greatest and the first player ever to record a quadruple double), Earl Monroe & Walt Frazier (who both entered the league when Russell was still playing), and Jerry Lucas. I wonder how "god" would have handled the racism, travel conditions, level of sports medicine and knowledge of physical conditioning that existed in the 50's & 60's? I know - "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up".
I'm gonna keep this simple cuz not much explanation is needed. No disrespect to Mike, he was an excellent player on D. However, Dream is Dream. All-Time leader in blocks, nuff side for that. Steals, frachise leader at that. To recap, that is 7'0" Hakeem all-time Rockets leader in steals. Speed, no center in history, yes, history (good try Mr. Robinson) has the speed of Hakeem. That leads to a terror on D. Dream could recover faster than any other play. But don't take my word for it, video never lies, check it out.
GATER, we need to meet sometime and laugh at all the people who think they know the old NBA, even though they haven't minded little details like actually seeing it. PS, I hate to sound like a broken record thomp1141, but I'm fairly sure that Wilt had a higher top-speed than Hakeem (though Hakeem was still quicker in the post).
Drexlerfan22 - There are some very intelligent and articulate posters here at Clutch City. While even very enlightened people can vastly differ on player evaluations, coaching strategies, and managerial decisions, IMHO most of the better posters here have an obvious reverence for the history of the game. As you and I both know, basketball was invented long before the 1984 NBA Draft. If I'm ever in Northern California, we can talk some hoops or music (my other passion - that's why I live in "The Live Music Capital of the World" ). Austin is about a 1 hour drive to San Antonio, ~ 2.5 hours to Houston and ~ 3.5 hours to Dallas. If you are ever in Texas, maybe we can get some of the Rockets fans together and display some true Southern hospitality (which I've learned in my 20+ years here). As an aside - my lengthy collegiate "career" included attending UofH and working for the bball team during the Phi Slamma Jamma days and currently one of my musician friends in Houston has informed me that Yao Mings mom was staying next door with friends while she awaited for her husband and son to arrive. This sounds like an omen to me! History does have a way of repeating itself.
"Drexlerfan22 - There are some very intelligent and articulate posters here at Clutch City. While even very enlightened people can vastly differ on player evaluations, coaching strategies, and managerial decisions, IMHO most of the better posters here have an obvious reverence for the history of the game. As you and I both know, basketball was invented long before the 1984 NBA Draft. " LOL....Yeah but it was perfected in that draft...GOD and ALLAH (MJ AND DREAM)came out that year, not to include the best point guard ever...oh wait, yall probaly think that George Mikan is better than SHAQ and HAKEEM, and that Jerry West can take GOD and KOBE at the same time U old timers make me laugh...so stuck on scrubs
This old timer can probably whip your a** on a basketball court or an IQ test. Take your freak a** on down the road, chump. If this were a party, you surely wouldn't have been invited.
Jordan did come back and play in 1995 but the man wasn't in basketball shape. He didn't have his legs under him and wasn't the same player. If the Bulls would have had the Jordan of 96-98 for the '95 year then the Rockets would have played the Bulls in the finals that year.
Jordan was in excellent basketball shape; the reason they didn't go to the finals was Rodman he was the missing piece they needed.
92-93 78 games .495 fg% 32.6 pts 94-95 17 games .411 fg% 26.9 pts 95-96 82 games .495 fg% 30.4 pts 96-97 82 games .486 fg% 29.6 pts 97-98 82 games .465 fg% 28.7 pts So Rodman is the reason that he only shot .411% from the field and averaged only 26.9 points per game. Maybe you don't remember how he played when he came back from playing baseball but the man could not jump the way he used to. I recall several times he drove to the basket where he elevated for a dunk but never quite made it so he had to finger role it in.
The Real Shady, I thought you had better basketball knowledge than that. This is not even a fair debate. When Jordan won his first 3 championships he had Bill Cartwright and Horace Grant enforcing the paint. During his finale three championships he had Dennis Rodman (maybe the greatest ever defensive and rebounding power forward of all time) patrolling the paint. Who did he have in 1995? Luc Longley? Please. The Houston Rockets are the one team that had a winning record against Bulls during their championship years. Regardless of the reason Jordan was not good enough to lead his team back to the finals in 95 and he would not have been able to do it the next three years if they had not acquired someone to play in the paint. That is just a fact. How many games did Jordan play in the regular season in 95? Wasn’t it over 30? Shouldn’t that have been enough to get his legs back under him. The fact is that no matter how good Jordan was he was not able to win the championship by himself. Period. Once again that does not even make a good debate. Wilt is proof of this statement. Just check out his stats he was easily most dominant during his era than any other player in the history of the game. The reason he only won a couple of championships was because you simply can not win championships with just one player. Jordan is no different. In 94 and 95 Houston was simply the best team. Period.
DrexlerFan22, I'm not going to argue with you about Wilt's shear speed. If memory serves me correctly, he was the Big 8 (12 now) Conference Champ in the 200 meters as well as in the High Jump at Kansas. In terms of pure athletic ability, we will never see Wilt's equal, and if we do, God help us. In terms of Hakeem's speed, it was in reference to his recovery ability. Getting over to help from the weak side, recovering if he was beaten, etc... However, it is refreshing to here someone call me on that. Most people think Wilt was some big, Shaq-like lug and dominated just because he was big. Wilt dominated because he was a better athlete than the guards.
I just went to this survey, and I didn't even have the chance to vote for the Round Mound of Rebound in the rebounding category. Jerry West is in there, but no Chuckster? I had to vote for the Big O. The guy averaged a triple double one season!
It wasn't 30 it was more like 17 games that I stated in my last post that he played in 94-95. Basketball shape is way different then baseball shape. And Jordan would not have won it by himself he would have had Scott Pippen. Rodman came in and helped them to win 72 games. What's the difference if they didn't have him they still would have won around 62 and still would have went to the championship.
And Not only was Jordan beaten, he was chumped by Nick Anderson in the clutch moment. Jordan just wasn't good enuff at full strength (he did drop 50 on the knicks didn't he...)
No one scored more in a 95 season game than Jordan did vs. the Knicks (50+). Even the best need help and Rodman provided the edge they needed to become one of the best teams of all time. If Stockton had missed that last second shot in the 99 WC championship we would have seen one of the best finals of all time. Dream, Drex, Barkley vs. Jordan, Pippen, Rodman...
Jordan scored 55 because he is Jordan and was in the zone. Look at the stats they don't lie. He only shot .411% from the field during the 94-95 season. That is the worst % he has ever had in the NBA. He was clearly not the same player until he had an full offseason to get back into form.
I like it when Bulls fans bring up this argument about "Jordan wasn't in basketball shape" (believe me The Real Shady, you are not the first), especially when making the argument that Jordan is the "best player ever," although our friend has not done that here. The fact is that there really haven't been any championships won by teams without all-star calibur big-men. It's really nothing for Jordan to be ashamed of, but it is the truth... he needed Rodman to win those championships. Of course, being the Wilt-worshipping man that I am, I'm always ticked off when people say this, because Wilt did Jordan one better on this one, and no one ever remembers... In the 1969-70 season, Wilt got injured about ten games in. It was reported that he was out for the season. Not accepting of that, Wilt did his best to rehabilitate, and managed to return with 2 games of regular season play left. From there, he led the Lakers to the finals, where they lost in 7 games. Oh, but I forgot, that makes Wilt a "choker," while Jordan "had court rust." Or at least, that seems to be the logic of all the Bulls trolls running around . But what really scares me is the people on this board who call Jordan "God" and really mean it. When Evol first said it, I thought he was joking... oh well, I figure if I treat these people like I treat fundamentalists I'll do okay.
Jordan is not ashamed because he won three championships without an all-star calibur big-man. Horace Grant and Bill Cartright are not all-stars. Horace Grant was way overrated and fed off of the open shots that he received from the constant attention paid Jordan and Pippen.
