crazy stat from ESPN: players vs lebron as the primary defender: 8.8ppg in the playoffs. he has guarded iggy, paul pierce, deng/rose, marion/terry.
How is any argument about basketball opinions "valid?" If it all just boils down to stats, none of us would have much to talk about. I don't happen to be one of those people saying Lebron is a second fiddle -- or I don't think I've said anything like that. And yes, his stats are much better than D-wade's this year. But the generic topic is interesting and it's not just about stats. It's about a spirit. D-Wade may well have more of that; he's so damned good, for instance, in game 3's. Magic/Worthy/Kareem. Worth a discussion. Most would say that was definitely Magic's team. Was he always dominant statistically? I don't know. Bird/McHale/Parish. Most would say Bird's team. Was he always dominant statistically? I don't know. Why is this so upsetting to people who love Lebron? He's a great player, but why does everyone have to keep saying that and not dare criticize him? he's a big boy, and a rich big boy. He'll be fine.
I don't have time to do research on Magic's year. Isiah outplayed Dumars in every category except scoring and Dumars won the MVP votes. In 2007 Duncan was clearly not the clearcut alpha dog anymore. In this year's finals, Wade is far ahead of James in rebounds, blocked shots, and points. James is only slightly better in assists and steals. In other words, everybody can see that Wade is the best player in this series. Not so with Dumars and Parker. And here are the two main differences between LeBron and the other guys: 1. They did not choose to play with Worthy, Dumars, and Parker "just" to win. (This point has been repeated I don't know how many times and your guys just ignore it.) 2. When the other guys on their teams won the finals MVP, these players have long established as the team leader for years. There was NO question who was the main man. LeBron, on the other hand, is playing with Wade for the first time and he is taking a backseat on the biggest stage of his career.
The reason people are "ignoring" this point is that it is stupid. If your team drafts or trades well, you don't need to leave to better your situation. Cleveland did a **** job of bringing help around LeBron (as evidenced by their record without him) and so he left. Heck, Kobe demanded a trade ("I'd rather play on Pluto") when the Lakers sucked for only three years (compared to LeBron's eight)... but his management brought him in a legitimate star to help him out.
If you go back and look at the stats for those three examples you gave the only one that is close statistically is the Dumars/Isiah example. Duncan and Magic both had very close stats to the person that beat them out. I would have to say that Isiah was second banana to Dumars in the 89 finals just like Lebron has been to Wade. Not calling Lebron the Robin of the team but he is playing Robin on the biggest stage of his life and he is suppose to be the best player in basketball which is something that Isiah was never considered. Finals Stats Worthy - 22/7/4 Magic - 21/5/13 Dumars - 27/1/6 Isiah - 21/2/7 Parker - 24/5/3 Duncan - 18/11/3 Wade - 29/8/5 James - 20/6/6
Absolutely. 2007 Kobe (who demanded the trade) and 2010 LeBron (who left in free agency) were both MVP candidates on crappy teams in their primes. The reason I have always that LeBron is the better player is that he took his crappy team to 60+ wins while Kobe only took his to 40+, but that is irrelevant to this discussion.
Bird was clearly the best player on that team from the moment he joined it as a rookie, just as LeBron was on Cleveland and is now on the Heat. The point is that other players can win the Finals MVP because in a single series anyone can shine.
Hakeem, Jordan, Magic, Shaq, and even Bird in 81 were not outshined the way Lebron is being outshined right now. Larry averaged 15/15/7/2 to Maxwell's 17/9/3/.2 in 81. It's less about Wade being the better player in the finals and more about how much better of the player he is being so far, but Lebron does still have time to even things out so it is too soon to really analyze it.
Whew. Almost forgot for a second and became a Mavs supporter: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/truehoop/miamiheat/news/story?id=6634919 After falling behind 2-1 in the series, Mavs guard DeShawn Stevenson said James and Dwyane Wade were "great actors" when trying to get fouls called. Jason Terry said that the Heat, who are holding the Mavs to 42 percent shooting and just 88 points per game so far, aren't the best defense Dallas has seen in the postseason. But the nugget that seemed to most get under the Heat's skin was that James, who has played stretches of successful defense against Terry in the fourth quarters, would be wearing down. "We're going to see if (LeBron) can do it for seven games," Terry said Monday. "That's going to be the challenge. Right now, it's Game 4. Can he do it again in Game 4? He wasn't able to do it in Game 2. He did it in Games 1 and 3, so Game 4 is another opportunity." I could care less about the "motivating the Heat" part, just the "finally, the Mavs' douchebaggery comes out" part. Hopefully, Cuban breaks his silence and says something stupid, and then the circle will be complete.
lebron is the best player in the L. wade simply has it going offensively right now. lebron can impact the game more than just scoring. look at the bulls series, if wade wasn't scoring, he wasn't doing much. lebron is still scoring 20 points on over 50% shooting for god sakes. nobody says much in the media when wade averaged 18ppg on 41% vs chicago. the expectations are higher for the better player, and they're higher for lebron. he can play better, and should. but he knows wade is owning the mavs' defenders right now, and he's focusing his energy on shutting down his guy.
Oh it's fair to criticize. I just like the criticism to actually make some type of sense. For example, it makes no sense to me to call a man a second banana when he is leading the team in all major categories and also their primary defender. That makes no sense to me since I have never seen anything like that before. I have no issue saying Wade is outplaying him in the Finals. But the last time I checked, that also happened once to Magic, Duncan and Isiah.
LeBron is being outshined because Wade is having a great series, not because LeBron is having a bad one. He's still putting up 20/7/6 on 50%+ shooting while taking everyone he guards out of the game. The only reason this is an issue is because the media is desperate to make it one.
You are missing the point of the whole comparison. The point is how can you call James a second fiddle when he is leading the team in points, boards (well 1 off) and dimes for the duration of the playoffs? All because he is getting bested by Wade in the Finals? Well, so did those other guys. So now you are saying the other examples aren't valid because they didn't get bested "as much"? LeBron is not playing bad in the Finals. He isn't playing as good as Wade, but 20/6/6 on 51% and 40% from behind the arc, all while being the best defender isn't bad at all. The argument is essentially being second banana in the Finals means you are second banana on the team. But that doesn't apply to those other scenarios where the star players didn't play the best in the Finals. I'm done. Clippy summed it up much better than I could.
We already pointed out that those people you mentioned were not outplayed to the magnitude LeBron is being outplayed right now. And the point is not even only this series. Magic, Duncan and Isiah was never questioned on their leader status. They had been the leaders of their respective teams for years. When LeBron joined Wade on what was Wade's team, everyone has been asking who the leader is. Magic was drafted to Kareem's team. But he quickly established as the leader of the team. Duncan was drafted to Robinson's team. But Robinson quickly deferred to Duncan. And when they won their championships the first time, they were clearly the best players on their team.
3-1 Miami tonight. 1 step closer to seeing Cuban's face when they give Miami the title in Dallas :grin:
I clearly said he wasn't the second fiddle of the team but he has been in the finals so it seems like we agree.
