NBA Champion Tom Thibodeau on Charles Edward Hayes Jr.

if we could somehow combine Hayes and Novak

 

trade hayes for perkins. No idea what the contract is, put in fillers from head to bjax. If Tom likes him so much.

hayes is a great situational player, but if he is your rotational players, it clearly meant your team needs upgrading. Look at the difference that scola and landry brings. They are nothing great on the defensive side, and for all the adulation they get for able to score, they average 10.3 pts and 8.1 pts respectively in the league. And for that they have the minutes before him.

This shows that the ability to score, is more important than defense, as long as your defense is not a huge liability to the team.

No matter how well the ability to defend, if you cant get the ball into the net, you cant win. And hayes have a huge problem at putting the ball in the net.
If he is 7ft, or being able to jump and dunk the ball, or just being able to score on open jump shots/lay-up, by all meant sign him up for the MLE. But his not, and in a team that lack offense he is clearly not in the higher priority of the rox plans.

Going to Novak, he may not score on every possession, but he be able to give a lot of space to yao and Tmac. Even if he just stands there, he be able to pull a defender to him. I really thinks he can play extended minutes in a team that have excellent shot blockers and lane penetration, but as Rox is the opposite of that, his skills will be redundant, as battier, head, bjax, alston all are 3p shooters, and his defense will be exploited to the maximum. In a team like Atalanta, i can vision him with 15-20 minutes, and 15 points. But in rox jersey, he will be nothing more than 2 minutes and 1 point.

 

no.. but i do remember yao and tracy... oh wait..

 

Chuck Hayes is just great to have on your team as a 3rd string PF.

 

Funny how some of the most respected minds in the game rant about how great Chuck Hayes is without provocation yet the arm chair coaches can't see all the positive things he does. The dumbing down of the fans is never more evident that when Chuck Hayes is mentioned for not being able to dunk or block shots.

I agree he is a role player and probably should not start but he IS valuable. I can't understand how NBA fans with any knowledge fail to see how he impacts the game. He wreaks havoc on bigs down low and is fantastic at stopping further penetration when guards get into the lane, he rebounds, plays within himself and doesn't turn the ball over.

He catches blame and malice because he isn't a scorer. Guess what? He isn't supposed to be. That's not his job. Chuck isn't the problem. It's the guys who are scorers who are not scoring or not efficiently scoring. I don't hear anyone down on Rafer, Luther or Shane for being bad rebounders so why does Chuck catch hell for not being something he is not?

If you want to trade Chuck for a scorer I can understand that but those that think "he sucks" or doesn't do many valuable things are just not intelligent.

 

WOW! Wreaks havoc huh!

After the "wreaks havok" comment I dont know if you should be talking about other peoples intelligence. Chuck does have value, as a 3rd string PF on a team without an above average PF.

 

Again, if he is so great then why did two rookies put him at the end of the bench?

How is a fan dumb for recognizing that Hayes inability to simply dunk the ball makes him a complete waste on offense, which keeps him off the floor to play his "great defense"? Things would be completely different if he could simply finish the gimmie looks that he gets. See Carl Landry.

So valuable that he would not have gotten PT last year if Yao didn't go down (after Scola and Landry got established)? So valuable that we used another pick on his position even though we are expected to keep the two rookies that had him at the end of the bench last season...alongside his other one-dimensional buddy Novak?

I can't understand how NBA fans with any knowledge fail to see how his complete lack of offense impacts the game. His defense is not THAT GOOD to offset this (see B.Wallace, Rodman). This is why two rookies that don't defend as well took his minutes.

His job isn't to create his own points, but no player on the court should be able to be completely ignored on offense. This makes it much harder for our other players to score.

I think he sucks enough as to where two decent rookie PF's put him at the end of the bench. What sign is more telling than that?

 

While his offense sucks, his defense is one of the best at his position. Morey called him a top 5 or 10 defender in the league in an radio interview (there was a thread on that awhile back) and a ESPN writer (I think John Hollinger) also ranked him a top 5 defender at the power forward position.

It's hard to regard a power forward who can't block shots and is 6'6" is great defender. But the truth is, he is a very strong player, moves his feet well, and uses his upper body well to throw players on the block off-balance. Rarely, would you see Chuck let a player beat him to the basket. Watch any Rockets game, and you'll see it. His bball IQ is also off the charts; its just too bad he has no offensive skills or ball-handing skills to back that IQ up.

Chuck Hayes has some value here being a situational player off the bench. And he's cheap, so don't be so quick to just give him away.

 

Way to play semantics. Keep rolling your eyes. It's about all you're good for.

You should watch the games, see his rotations, see him push guys 3-4 out of their comfort zone in the post, meet guards in the lane who have beaten our guards on the perimeter, strip bigger players before they can shoot, strip ballhandlers, take charges, rebound etc.

I know, I know. He doesn't dunk like Amare or block shots like Camby so he sucks.

 

So Morey, JVG, Rudy T and Tom Thibodeau (off the top of my head) all think Hayes is very good player and a great defensive one? Those guys should quit being GMs, HOFers and fantastic NBA coaches and log onto this BBS for a dose of reality from some 16 year old fans who think the Rockets franchise was created when Yao was drafted.

 

When Yao and McGrady are healthy, he's a great power forward for this team, when either is hurt he loses some of his value and you have to play Landry more for his offense.

 

Chuck Hayes is a good player, very smart, an excellent defender, but he is FAR FAR FAR from a complete player.

He is an end of the rotation situational guy.

While his defense is outstanding, and his intangibles great, to ignore his limited offensive game and horrid FT shooting is to ignore talking about the elephant in the room.

Chuck is welcome on my team any day of the week, but if we are relying on him as a starter or serious contributor....we are in trouble, especially if you have other offensively challenged players playing alongside him like Rafer and Battier.

DD

 

DD,

Nobody is saying that he's a starter. you are the only one saying that he and Novak are about equal. That's the problem. You obviously are severely undervaluing how important Chuck is to the team.

There are very few complete players in this league. Teams need complete players, but teams also need guys who do different things well. Chuck does pretty much everything well but shoot, so saying he's far far far from a complete player may be accurate, but it's misleading.

I hope you see the light on the value of Chuck to our ball club. I for one have watched too many of his unsung, solid performances to act like he has minimal value to our team. It's just plain not true. Go back and watch the games.

btw: he's still young and improving every year, so ...

 

Let's get something straight right from the get-go. When was the last freakin' time you heard an NBA coach, assistant coach, or former coach say ANYTHING BAD about a player? I'm not talking Soap Opera drama s**t like Shaq and Kobe and Phil...I'm talking about someones ability to PLAY the NBA game. Find it...if you can...and provide us a link.

And no, Van Gundy's rants about how someone on the Lakers doesn't/didn't play D doesn't count for crap. Consider the source. Case in point...during the playoffs, an offensive player makes an incredible move to get off a shot and VG wants us to always believe it was bad D. BS.

All NBA personnel types have their own set of unique qualities that they look for in a player. That skill set matches the way they want the game played. Regardless of how Jeff Van Gundy clone Tom Thibideaux feels about Chuck Hayes, it is NOT a universal opinion shared by the entire league. Or, have I been missing all of those trade rumors?

I understand why Hayes is so popular on this board...he's the "everyman"...he's "just like us"...we don't have the skills either but we play hard every night. Admirable. But not definitive. A human interest story but mega light years from a human high-light reel.

Bottomline...just because someone chooses to disagree with Tom T...it doesn't make them "dumb". It's Thibideaux's opinion and it's surely not written on a stone tablet anywhere.

 

Ummmm... yeah, gonna agree with Dave here.

You seem to think that Chuck "wreaks havoc" is an indefensible position. I think the reverse is. I can think of few in the league who play the post better, I can think of few better at knocking the ball away, I can think of few better at sliding in for a charge or simply turning away penetration by a guard, and still managing to get back, contest a post shot, and grab an insane rebound that he has no business getting.

Not being an intimidating shotblocker does preclude someone from being able to "wreak havoc" on defense.

Bash Chuck's O all ya want. But he's awesome on D.

 

Hayes played 20MPG with an offensive minded leaning coach, only 2 MPG less the the year before with a totally defensive focused coach. He still played more minutes than the 2nd round surprise of the draft (who also only stayed healthy half the season for us, and by the way is less than 6 months younger than Hayes) and only 5 minutes less than an internatural superstar (3 years older than him) who was rookie in name only. We act like it is a bad thing he is losing minutes and competing for minutes with these 2 very effective but old for "rookies".

As for Dorsey making him expendable. The day a GM counts on a 2nd rounder who yet to play with NBAers to replace a rotational player is the day that guy is running the Grizzlies. Why do you think we were so stingy with Landry's contract last year, it was about a 1/10 shot he was as effective as he was.

Agree except the "end of the rotation...guy" part (to me that means the guys who only break a sweat in blowouts). Chuck is a middle of the rotation guy, 3rd or 4th guy off the bench is just fine.

Last year everybody was b****ing about Hayes starting and being counted on. Now he is in a much better rotation of PFs because we acquired two other capable guys, many of them are still b****ing. As Brian famously said to the old ex-Lepper, "There is just no pleasing some people".

 

Playing time? Seriously? That's your best shot? What happened to the PT once a more rounded player and a player who fell into the 2nd round because of knee questions took the PT away? How come Thibideaux isn't praising them? A little bias on his part?

Wonder what you..."the experts said it and I believe it" types will cling to when Dorsey sends Hayes back to the D-League? Guess you'll be expecting Tom T to talk Ainge into picking him up of waivers.

 

During our win streak he still average over 15MPG. I'd call that contributing.

And of course that 25 year old rookie who fell to the 2nd because of the knee questions still has them.

As for Dorsey sending him to the D-League, see my last post.

 

I love Chuck but he is no where near Rodman's level. Hayes is a good role player, nothing more, nothing less. Basketball is played on both ends so it wouldn't hurt if Chuck had some type of offensive game. Guys don't even guard him and leave him to double Yao. That is a BIG problem.