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NBA Champion Tom Thibodeau on Charles Edward Hayes Jr.

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Carl Herrera, Jul 2, 2008.

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durvasa Member

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If Chuck guards a Boozer or Okur and they perform poorly, Chuck doesn't get credit for it. It's either because of Yao or they just sucked on their own. However, if they do perform well, that's Chuck's fault regardless of whether he was actually guarding them.

Priceless logic.

#221 durvasa, Jul 6, 2008

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BackNthDay said:

..He's a good role player for 15 minutes a game. If Dorsey is a good as hoped, if Landry despite his difficult agent is signed to a reasonable contract and stays healthy, and if Yao and Scola stay healthy, Chuck's minutes will evaporate.
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Modified for balance and accuracy.

If Chuck Hayes minutes disappear that is good for the Rockets because that means a lot of young players with more upside have worked out and we have had great health in our bigs. But only a fool would count those chickens just yet or would not be happy that Hayes is on our roster just in case.

I remember all these people who thought he was expendable (should not be resigned, or be traded) because we acquired Jackie Butler. That would have been smart, right?

#222 Desert Scar, Jul 6, 2008
Carl Herrera Member

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kjayp said:

Chuck is a decent enough player, he's just never gonna be a starting quality player - which is a shame cause he's a helluva nice guy. If you can spare the roster spot, he's a good role player and filler - better option than Ryan Bowen. lol
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I'm trying to think of when a team really can't spare a roster spot for a Chuck Hayes-- a player with very pronouced strengths (defense, defensive and offensive rebounding, intelligence) and very pronounced weaknesses (FT, shooting range), and more important, makes less than $2 million a year. Even if he is out of your regular rotations, I can't imagine a more useful player can be had for cheaper to come in for for special situations (for example, playing D for just 1 possession at the end of a quarter or the end of a close game, coming in to defend a guy that other guys have difficulty with, insuring against foul trouble or injury).

#223 Carl Herrera, Jul 6, 2008
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durvasa said:

If Chuck guards a Boozer or Okur and they perform poorly, Chuck doesn't get credit for it. It's either because of Yao or they just sucked on their own. However, if they do perform well, that's Chuck's fault regardless of whether he was actually guarding them.

Priceless logic.
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Logic? There's no logic there. It's fact.

Boozer hurted his back at the end of March. The last 7 games in April, Boozer only averaged ~ 10 pts. 2 playoff series, Boozer only averaged ~ 11 pts. Doug Collins questioned Boozer's poor performance in the Lakers series, said that Boozer's back problem must be more than he let out.

#224 doublebogey, Jul 6, 2008
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Carl Herrera said:

I'm trying to think of when a team really can't spare a roster spot for a Chuck Hayes-- a player with very pronouced strengths (defense, defensive and offensive rebounding, intelligence) and very pronounced weaknesses (FT, shooting range), and more important, makes less than $2 million a year. Even if he is out of your regular rotations, I can't imagine a more useful player can be had for cheaper to come in for for special situations (for example, playing D for just 1 possession at the end of a quarter or the end of a close game, coming in to defend a guy that other guys have difficulty with, insuring against foul trouble or injury).
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Is he really that much of a bargain? You are basically paying a mill or so for a dude that will only play in special situations or if someone gets hurt. is that really worth slightly under $2M a season?

#225 Icehouse, Jul 6, 2008
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doublebogey said:

Logic? There's no logic there. It's fact.

Boozer hurted his back at the end of March. The last 7 games in April, Boozer only averaged ~ 10 pts. 2 playoff series, Boozer only averaged ~ 11 pts. Doug Collins questioned Boozer's poor performance in the Lakers series, said that Boozer's back problem must be more than he let out.
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It's fact that Chuck is responsible for Okur's production, regardless of whether he was defending him (unless, of course, he performs poorly, in which case other factors need to be considered). Got it.

#226 durvasa, Jul 6, 2008
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durvasa said:

It's fact that Chuck is responsible for Okur's production, regardless of whether he was defending him. Really? That's a fact?
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LOL! It's a fact that Hayes cant guard Okur. I dont doubt Hayes' heart, only the reach of his arms.

Yeah right, Hayes pushes Okur out to the 3 pt line and make Okur shoots 3 pointer. LOL!

#227 doublebogey, Jul 6, 2008

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doublebogey said:

LOL! It's a fact that Hayes cant guard Okur. I dont doubt Hayes' heart, only the reach of his arms.
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No. It's a fact that Chuck is short. It's not a fact that Chuck is incapable of defending Okur on the perimeter. That is an "opinion". Quickness, strength, and smarts are more important in 1-on-1 defense than length, in my opinion. As long as the defender can stay close, not get beat off the dribble, and puts a hand in the shooters face, he's done his job. Amongst all our defensive options against Okur, Chuck does those things the best.

#228 durvasa, Jul 6, 2008
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Icehouse said:

Is he really that much of a bargain? You are basically paying a mill or so for a dude that will only play in special situations or if someone gets hurt. is that really worth slightly under $2M a season?
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Considering our injury history, I think so. Also, most of us assumed last year that Rafer would be a third-string PG or traded after acquiring Mike James and Steve Francis. That didn't happen. We have to wait and see how training camp unfolds. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that Chuck will be in the rotation to start the season, even with Yao, Scola, and Landry available.

#229 durvasa, Jul 6, 2008
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Why not crown him the MVP now?

#230 Kwame, Jul 6, 2008
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BackNthDay said:

That was Carroll Dawson who help and still helps Yao in the low post and let's not forget about Dream. I credit Thib with helping Yao on the defensive end, however he's not an offensive genuis. How many PnR can you run during a game.
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I'm not saying he is an offensive genius by any means. CD definitely has helped Yao out,but when JVG was the coach he didn't allow CD to work out with him.

#231 saleem, Jul 6, 2008
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cd had nothing to do with yao's development...worked with him once or twice a summer...thibs and falsone along with yao deserve all the credit...not cd

#232 denniscd, Jul 6, 2008
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denniscd said:

cd had nothing to do with yao's development...worked with him once or twice a summer...thibs and falsone along with yao deserve all the credit...not cd
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Yao has more to do with his own development than falsone, thibs, or cd, but he gets no credit. He has a reputation of being a hardworker.

#233 BetterThanEver, Jul 7, 2008

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saleem said:

I'm not saying he is an offensive genius by any means. CD definitely has helped Yao out,but when JVG was the coach he didn't allow CD to work out with him.
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Yao's number dropped last season... after CD's "help".

#234 ekim, Jul 7, 2008
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More from Feigan on the conversation between Thibodeau and himself:

(It was just a conversation. I did not take notes, as in an interview. He spoke a lot about his unusual combination of strength, keeping bigger forwards from catching the ball too low, and the defensive quickness to rotate and help. Most of it was on that, although he mentioned deflections and his ability to strip the ball when opponents look to shoot. He was more specific on the ability to help and rotate, but I found it particularly interesting in that he was comparing it to Garnett. -- Jonathan)
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#235 Carl Herrera, Jul 7, 2008
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alright,

I tried to read every post, just saw this thread but it was just too hard to read 12 pages about chuck hayes.

the guy is a situational powerforward, he defends post players very well because he is so stout and so strong (and he's a hard worker), the guy probably could defend yao on the block. he's a really good rebounder not great, if this were 1990, he'd be more valuable, but with all these mobile power forward, and lack of offensive centers, there's no one for him to defend on a consistent basis.

#236 pgabriel, Jul 7, 2008
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pgabriel said:

alright,

I tried to read every post, just saw this thread but it was just too hard to read 12 pages about chuck hayes.

the guy is a situational powerforward, he defends post players very well because he is so stout and so strong (and he's a hard worker), the guy probably could defend yao on the block. he's a really good rebounder not great, if this were 1990, he'd be more valuable, but with all these mobile power forward, and lack of offensive centers, there's no one for him to defend on a consistent basis.
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One of Chuck's strength as a defensive PF is his ability to defend more mobile players.

#237 durvasa, Jul 7, 2008
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Hayesfan said:

Dude, I was just giving you a hard time. I know just as well as everyone else what his faults are.

Relax.

Plus, I have already gone on record as saying it's possible that he will be traded, more than likely at the deadline, if Dorsey works out. I think they will hold onto him until then depending on what trades come through and who they can keep on the 15 man roster.

It's also Rafer's job to make layups and Tracy's to make free throws. Everyone has something they have to work on.
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Point taken and I'm relaxing as I write. I love Chuck's hustle and IQ. I just wished hops, a jumper, and free throw shooting went with it.

#238 BackNthDay, Jul 7, 2008

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BackNthDay said:

Point taken and I'm relaxing as I write. I love Chuck's hustle and IQ. I just wished hops, a jumper, and free throw shooting went with it.
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are you talking about the other chuck? you know, the guy who once won the mvp back in the days?

#239 ibm, Jul 7, 2008
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Didn't want to start a new thread... but I did want to share this. I can't figure out how he came up with his numbers. So maybe someone smarter than I can explain it.

http://www.hoopsavenue.com/2008/07/who-are-really-the-best-rebounders-and-shot-blockers/

If I were to ask you to name the best rebounders and shotblockers in the NBA, you’d probably rattle off some names like Dwight Howard, Marcus Camby, and other players on the league leaders list, and rightfully so…but, what if they didn’t have their height advantage? What if Dwight Howard was 6′5″? Would he still be a good rebounder? Better than a 6′5″ Nate Robinson?

Of course we will never know the actual answer to this, but we can make some guesstimates. I took a look at the height of all the players in the league, their rebounding abilities, and shotblocking prowess to come up with two prediction models.

Basically, you tell the model how tall a guy is and it’ll tell you how many rebounds he should get and how many blocks he should get. If you’re Nate Robinson, expectations are low, but if you’re Dwight Howard you’re gonna have to put up some pretty big numbers.

So who did better than expected according to the model? Here are the top 10 rebounders with the percentages indicating how many rebounds they got per 40 minutes compared to how many they were expected to pull down:

Chuck Hayes 169%
Reggie Evans 169%
Dwight Howard 167%
Jason Kidd 161%
Shawn Marion 157%
Nick Collison 157%
Marcus Camby 155%
Kurt Thomas 153%
Bonzi Wells 147%
David Lee 147%

So you can see Dwight Howard is a great rebounder no matter how you look at it.

Here are the numbers for blocks:

Josh Smith 311%
Marcus Camby 286%
Jason Maxiell 246%
Samuel Dalembert 192%
Chris Kaman 187%
Amare Stoudemire 186%
Andray Blatche 186%
Ben Wallace 183%
Dwyane Wade 176%
Delonte West 176%

Mostly big guys who you’d expect there, but Jason Maxiell at 6′7″ is impressive. Ben Wallace is still looking good and almost certainly would have topped the list a few years ago. And, don’t underestimate the shot blocking abilities of Dwyane Wade and Delonte West, both whom just qualified for the list with 0.76 Blocks per 40 minutes. The minimum requirements were 0.75 Blocks per 40 minutes and 1500 minutes. For rebounds, they were 5 Rebounds per 40 minutes and 1500 minutes.

Perhaps the most impressive player from these top 10 lists is Marcus Camby, ranking on both lists despite that fact that the model has high expectations for a 6′11″ player such as himself. I’d guess he would drop off the lists if we adjusted for wingspan, though.

If you’re interested, a similar analysis was done for the 2004-05 season at lowpost.net . The analysis over there factored in height as well as body mass index (BMI) and even devotes some special attention to the Knicks. It’s worth checking out.
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The thing that stuck out to me is this is one way to statistically analyze Camby and see his defensive contribution. (other than the obvious blocked shots)

#240 Hayesfan, Jul 8, 2008

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