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Narrative of not having enough help for star players

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by arno_ed, Oct 21, 2021.

  1. arno_ed

    arno_ed Contributing Member

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    I want to share a pet peeve of mine and see what you al think about this. It annoys me to no end how pundits and commentators talk about how certain players have been so loyal to a franchise but (to no fault of their own) have not had much success. These players have been amazing, but they never had any help. So these players should ask for a trade, because if they played somewhere else they would have much more success.

    Players like this are Lillard, Beal, Westbrook (during his OKC days), Anthony Davis etc. They failed to get their team much success, and IMHO it is because they are not good enough (or do not have the right skills) to be the best player on a consistent successful playoff team (Let alone a championship team). But when you hear the pundits talk about them it seems like they are amazing and with another team they would have been very successful.

    Am I the only one with this opinion and that gets annoyed with this?
     
  2. TimDuncanDonaut

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    Those are guys who can't the cut the mustard as a #1 on a contending team.

    The other thing is parity. Organic clustering of superstars aside (say from a draft). If no superstars 'teamed up', statistically speaking it's possible for their teams to go further.

    ...Even then at least with those guys, a Lebron/Currry/Harden team where they're the #1 + scrubs, those teams do better than a Lily pad, Beal, Kat, Pelicans AD led team.

    Right now I'm putting Zion in this category until he proves otherwise.
     
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  3. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    Well...when you say they are not good enough to be the best player on a consistent successful playoff team, what are you using as a baseline to determine that they are good or not good enough? If you're using playoff appearances then Lillard shouldn't be part of this conversation because he can get his team into the playoffs without any issue. If you're talking about getting a team to the conference finals or the Finals then we'd have to look at how many teams in the past 10 years were able to get that far with only one franchise player.

    In certain situations the criticism that the franchise hasn't given Player X enough help is warranted. Like Portland, Lillard is, more or less, Steph Curry Lite and you should be able to get past the 1st Round every season with him. But they've struggled to put together a team around him that makes sense (e.g. the insistence that the pairing of Lillard and McCollum will work). Sure Lillard is bad on the defensive end but his offense more than makes up for his below average defense. As for Westbrook, he might have thrived in the "old" NBA but in today's game, where you need to be able to create space and also shoot from deep if you are going to dominate the ball, he's not going to do well as the alpha dog. Roster construction around a high usage player that can't create spacing or hit from 3 at a respectable clip is harder than, say, with a player like Lillard because now you're having to build around said high usage player with 2-way players and those aren't exactly easy to find.

    I hear ya though because we're used to the "olden days" where most teams would ride or die with just one franchise player but free agency and player empowerment has shifted that dynamic.
     
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  4. arno_ed

    arno_ed Contributing Member

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    I am indeed talking about play off success in as in a chance of winning a championship. To me Lillard is not a player that can win you a championship. Yes he makes some big shots. But I also remember him failing in the play offs in spectacular fashion (like the sweep from the Pelicans). I just do not see a team win a championship with him as your best player. Second best, sure. The same goes for Anthony Davis, amazing second best player. But as the main guy he has been very underwhelming.

    You might be right that I still have a "olden days" view on things. It just annoys me how the pundits talk about these players (and IMHO overrate them).
     
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  5. Reeko

    Reeko Member
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    sure, those players u mentioned aren’t really that guy, but don’t let these organizations off the hook

    Presti traded Harden which no one can say didn’t play a big part in KD eventually leaving. Once KD was gone, OKC was done when it came to contention and Russ was just left there to keep them afloat as a 1st round exit type playoff team as Presti stacked up on long athletic guys that can’t shoot along with a trash bench to surround Russ and later PG.

    Portland has been surrounding Lillard with sh*t tier defenders for the longest time. How are u gonna have Lillard, CJ, Melo, and Kanter in your top 8 rotation? U are guaranteed a bottom tier defense.

    Washington hasn’t had a 50 win season since 1979. That’s 42 years!! They’ve won more than 40 games just 16 times in that span. I mean, c’mon

    Pelicans already botching Zion
     
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  6. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    I can only go back as far as the early 90s since I was born in 1982 but even a team like Phoenix in the 90s had a REALLY good roster surrounding MVP-level Barkley. Kevin Johnson and Dan Majerle were All-Stars. Malone and Stockton had each other in Utah. Seattle had a legit roster with Payton, Kemp, Schrempf, etc. Hakeem eventually needed another All-Star in Clyde to repeat. Fast forward to the Harden era in Houston, while Harden was an all-world destroyer the first season with CP3 elevated his game even moreso. Lillard, warts and all, is needing that teammate/sidekick who can unlock his next level and bring out the absolute best in him. You replace CJ with a player like Jaylen Brown and I'm sure we'd see a more successful Blazers team. AD's full potential was in full view his first year with LeBron and we saw how he was able to annihilate everyone in his path.

    Roster construction is so critical in the grand scheme of things which is why, more or less, these talking heads are screaming Player A "does not have enough help".
     
  7. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    This stems from a CHAMPIONSHIP OR YOU ARE COMPLETE DOG CRAP mentality
    I hate to mention it. . . but in the minds of alot of people. . HARDEN IS A COMPLETE FAILURE as a player
    Because he could not beat the GSW . . . . . . Period. . . no excuses. . .nothing
    Beat GSW or you are a complete failure. . . no matter who is on your team . .no matter what happens to key players. . . no matter what
    WIN . . .or FAILURE

    Barkley/Malone/Stockton - over time they will keep dropping on the TOP ___ LIST
    until they drop out .. .why . .. NO RINGS!
    If a player is 90% of Barkley but has a Ring. . .the world says that player is better than Malone
    If he has multiple rings. . . he only has to be 80% of Barkley

    That is what fandom is these days
    THAT SAID . . . if you are a fan of those players mentioned above
    YOU HAVE TO CAVEAT them to death. . . .to explain why they are underrated and underperforming

    as for lillard
    IMO . . . PRIME BEAL AND CJ MCCOLLUM beats the dog sh*t out of PRIME LILLARD AND PRIME WALL

    Rocket River
     
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  8. arno_ed

    arno_ed Contributing Member

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    I totally agree. the organizations have been terrible. we should not let them of the hook. I feel they are definatly at fault, I just feel like the players are overrated.

    I see how you might think that from my post. But I actually hate the Championship or bust mentality. I have no problem with a player not being good enough to lead a tea to a championship. But I do hate it when pundits keep saying they should leave their team because their team sucks.

    To me the pundits are saying that Davis, Lillard, Beal Westbrook are amazing, and the it is not their fault their teams suck (or in Lillards case are not contenders). I believe that while they are good players they are not amazing players that can lead any team to the play offs (like players like James, Harden, Giannis, Durant can). Look at some of the teams Harden dragged to the play offs.

    To me it is amazing that pundits often compare what Lillard did to what Harden did. Lillard has never lead a team with a legit chance of winning a championship Harden has on multiple occasions.

    Davis could not get his team in the play offs most of the time but people are mentioning him as a potential top 75 of all time.....

    Beal appears to just be a good player on a bad team. Yes he can score. But does he elevate his teammates. Yes he has had terrible teams. But also sort of competent teams, and I believe if he was truly elite he would have taken some of them to the play offs.

    I think my main gripe is people saying these players are elite, even though they do not see to be able to carry their team.
     
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  9. bmelo

    bmelo Member

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    Its obvious thats why i never bought Hardens excuses. LeBron was so good he would go to finals with Larry Hughes and Ilgauskas and now CJ, Nurkic, Carmelo are not good enough for Lillard to even advance to 2nd round
     
  10. Reeko

    Reeko Member
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    comparing EC trash competition to the West…

    lol

    Also, Lillard ain’t Lebron which is obvious. 1 is in the GOAT convo for a reason…
     
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  11. Reeko

    Reeko Member
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    people will say that Harden is a loser because he has no ring

    we have people on here who will try to downplay and discredit all that he did in his 8 years here simply because of no ring, then turn around and cry, b*tch, and complain like a jealous ex because he left to go and try to win 1

    rings or bust mentality has people thinking All-time greats like Harden are trash because they have no jewelry

    these guys aren’t trying to be like Barkley…the only reason Barkley is even relevant is because he’s on Inside the NBA…if not for that, he’d have long been forgotten because he has no ring
     
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  12. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    true
    No one talks about Stockton and Malone
    George Gervin
    Ralph Sampson
    etc

    Rocket River
     
  13. bmelo

    bmelo Member

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    of course that's why Bron won multiple championships. But Lillard can't get past 1st round most of the time hes good baller but he don't have biggest impact on winning basketball games. His trash defense might have something to do with it
     
  14. Reeko

    Reeko Member
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    since his defense is so trash, maybe Portland should stop surrounding him with the likes of CJ, Melo, and Kanter basically guaranteeing a bottom 5 or bottom 10 defense

    and Bron needed Wade and Bosh, Kyrie and Love, and later AD to win rings…he would’ve never won a single title with Dame’s rosters even if he would’ve taken them farther than Dame has
     
    #14 Reeko, Oct 22, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2021
  15. steddinotayto

    steddinotayto Contributing Member

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    In Lillard's defense (I thought I would never say that in my life), Portland responded to Dame's request for more help by signing Carmelo Anthony and giving him significant minutes the past 2 seasons, which coincided with their defensive ranking being dead last during the same time span. Of course that isn't entirely Anthony's fault but it's just another example of how their front office has been sucking at team building.

    Like Barkley said last night, they need to break this team up and change out some of the parts because this team will continue to go nowhere.
     
  16. Easy

    Easy Very Calm
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    These players just needed to play with LeBron and they would have won at least one championship.
     
  17. KingLeoric

    KingLeoric Member

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    A lot of these fake greats are just good stat padders. These guys can put up nice offensive numbers and create flashy highlights (especially in the regular season against weak teams). But they tend to hog up all the usage, slack on defense and all the other little things. They usually make their teamates worse so you can never get them enough help. Don't be surprised if these guys put up great numbers and their team records are garbage.

    A better group of players are the ones play hard and smart both ways, and do the little things.

    Real great players are not only great individual 2 way contributors but also great leaders. These guys can usually control the flow of the whole game, help their teamates to grow and play better, and carry to their team win from both on and off the court (and I don't mean just dribble dribble dribble then pass for an assist). You will need one of these guys to go deep in the playoffs and win championships.
     
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  18. juanm34

    juanm34 Member

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    All I know is Lebron needs more help!
     
  19. KingLeoric

    KingLeoric Member

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    For real. He's played good D and shown good leaderships before but often he just coast on D and lacks leadership in difficult situations. His body language often looks depressed and defeated.

    Like this for example. Yes you played great yourself, yes your teamate just made a huge mistake, but this is when your team need leadership the most, encourage them and give them spirit to keep on fighting in the overtime, not face palming, then your team is truly done. (Of course afterwards the narrative is I get no help.)
     
  20. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Easter Egg Hunter - Tell me why? نحن عائلة

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    It is also the narrative that every super star player has to win or lead a team to a championship.

    It is cool.

    They certainly do not have to. It is a lesser legacy but in Corona times, just let that go.
     

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