many more? Who? Magic is the only one that jumps to mind and he was a pretty damn good scorer himself. I'd seriously like to see a list of good pass-first pgs that won a championship. I doubt it'd be much longer than the shoot-first. scrubs like Fisher and Kenny Smith don't count.
Usually, threads like these are prefaced by "besides Isiah Thomas..." I can't believe Axeman actually forgot him. Ruined his whole argument.
Prove me wrong. Who played on better teams? They are only separated by one ring. Personally, I think Isiah is the most underappreciated superstar in the history of basketball. Bird won with Mchale, D.J., and Parrish. Those are two hall of famers and a five time all-star. His first championship, he had Mchale, Parrish, and Nate Archibald. For those of you scoring at home, including Bird, that's 4 hall of famers. How many hall of famers did Zeke play with?
I'm with you on this, my Dad is from Detroit so I was a big fan of the "badboy" Pistons. I'm pretty sure Rodman will end up in the hall of fame, Dumars was really good but not a hall of famer, besides them that team was a bunch of really good role players. Bird definitely had the better team.
oh..if "scrubs" like fisher and smith don't count, then your assertion may be correct...but that ignores over half of all NBA champions, I'm sure.
ditto. You have to just look at the star players. The only star level PGs in the past two decades's champion teams are Magic and Isiah. Both of them are good scorers. It just happened that the other championship teams had their star players at other positions.
I loved Isaiah...in my top 3 favorite players of all time. And I hated Larry Bird. But there's no way. Larry controlled games...he took them over. Zeke didn't do that. Agreed entirely that the whole is often bigger than the sum of the parts...the fact the Pistons could stay on the court with the Celts was amazing to me...and it made me a HUGE Pistons fan back then. loved the idea of a team winning a championship WITHOUT ONE PLAYER AVERAGING OVER 20PPG!!!
Many of the non-star PG are "pass first" only because they aren't good scorers, or they have better scorers on the team. The only great "pass first" PGs in recent years who could actually be great scorers if they wanted were Magic and Stockton. Jason Kidd has been becoming a better scorer in the past year. I can't believe I am siding with the pro-Francis crowd on these two threads. I think the problem with Francis is not his scoring ability or "shoot first" style. It's his poor decision-making on the court.
Thomas took over his fair share of games. Someone already posted this but in 1990, he averaged 27 points, 7 boards, and 5 assists in the NBA Finals. He won a National Championship at Indiana. Scored 25 points in the fourth quarter of game 6 of the 1988 NBA Finals.
Better yet, name a champioship team that didn't have a 20+ ppg player on their team. No matter what kind of Steve bashing ya'll want to do today, he is still the best player on this team. Steve is the only one that can score 20 ppg, dish out 6 assists and pull down 6 boards on this team. He is still the only one that hit buzzer beating 3's to win or tie the game. Yes, Steve does has some faults, but who doesn't. Ya'll are looking for him to be the "perfect" player, when there is no such thing. Bottom line: Steve Francis is the best player on the Houston Rockets, Yao may one day take that role, but not yet. How about we end all Rocket bashing all together and get pumped for a new era in Rockets basketball. P.S. I am so freak'n excited about this season!!
Hey, don't get me wrong. I was a huge Isiah Thomas fan, I loved watching that big slug Lambier, and the 'Microwave', and Dumars was a classic. I am not hating on Isiah. However, if I was choosing one player around whom I could build a team, I take Bird over Isiah every time and twice on Sundays. No player *EVER* has had the pure killer instinct that Bird had. Jordan came very close, but Bird is, in my opinion, the best pure basketball player who has ever played the game. Heheh let the arguments begin
As some of said, the problem isn't having a "scorer first" point guard so much as it is having a pg that makes poor decisions. It would also help if Franchise could do a better job of stopping other pg's from scoring. PS Anybody that thinks Tony Parker isn't a "scorer first" PG is just dead wrong, and that in and of itslef sort of refutes this lame thread.
Magic and Isiah still averaged over 9 assists a game throughout their careers. And they were much more efficient scoreres than Francis has been up to this point. and that 90-91 playoff series Isiah took over he still dished out over 8 assists a game.
Well, since we haven't traded Francis and he's still a Rocket, I see him as the key to this team's chances to do anything in the playoffs this year. Yao should be more relaxed and consistent, and his extra bulk will help him hold his ground, and Van Gundy's defensive mindset will get us a few wins that we wouldn't have gotten last year. BUT... for the Rockets to make any real noise, Stevie will have to mature mentally and realize that it's all about making your teammates play better, not about doing everything yourself. Some great players know this when they come into the league -- Magic and Bird, for example, or even Yao. Others never get the picture -- Barkley, Iverson. And then there are those who learn it while they're still young enough to grab a ring or two -- like Jordan and Isaiah. For our sake, let's hope Steve falls into this last category. If he ever matures into that kind of player, and you put him on the floor with Yao, look out. Things could get really ugly for the rest of the league.
i already did...the detroit pistons did it. thomas averaged right at around 19ppg during the regular season. certainly not over 20ppg.
well . . . . I would take your argument but their happens to be a WHOLE other half of the court where Bird was AVERAGE *AT BEST* His defense left a LOT to be desired That is where Jordan surpassed him Rocket River
Rocket River, Bird was not a great defender, of course, mainly due to his athleticism. However, Bird made up for it with smarts. He might be one of the greatest "anticipators of the ball" that there ever was. He had a great knack for being in the right place at the right time (see his famous steal of Isiah Thomas in the playoffs). Dude averaged close to 2 steals for his career. Pretty good for a 6'10'' slow footed SF.
Don't feel too comfortable. Isiah Thomas was a playmaker and a shooter. Unlike Francis, he just wants the ball.
