Formula is fairly simple, we have to float around until an opportunity to bring in a bonafide franchise guy comes around. Doesn't matter how badly you want one, you've got to wait until one shows up at your door (draft or FA). I'd be very slow to move Martin. Folks can judge him too harshly because he's our best player but isn't a franchise guy. But when you look at what he does, even tossing in his faults (D, creating)....he may just be the second coming of Reggie Miller (minus the HOF uber-clutchness). Install a real post presence, and you're really cooking. I really wish more posters understood how rare and how valuable his elite efficiency is. 1.48 pps is as good as it gets with wings....the polar opposite of volume shooting chuckers (Brandon Jennings, Micheal Beasley, Andray Blatche - no coincidence they're all on crap teams). The other big piece to consider is we don't know how big the ramifications will be under the new CBA. If the owners really hold out for a hard(er) cap, Rockets really will be in good position. Even if they sign Chuck and Yao to $6M each, they'll be right at the cap or just under. Lakers, Mavs, and even Spurs are going to have a tough adjustment if forced to stay in the ballpark of $65M. And someone mentioned Marc Gasol before...I'd be ecstatic if we could outbid Memphis for his services (pending the CBA, this could possibly be more likely than we thought). His numbers have been deflated by Randolph's presence, but that doesn't change the fact that he's a very efficient low post player, capable rebounder, and underappreciated shot blocker. Despite his low touches, he's as unselfish a passer as any center in the league (he and Chuck are both top 5 among centers in assists). Not a savior, but he would single handedly take care of our issues at the 5. Gasol - Hayes - Yao Scola - Patterson - Hill Chase - (Lee) Martin - (Lee) Lowry - Dragic Miller, Thabeet, and Williams I don't have any hope for. Even less hope than I do for Yao bouncing back as a 10 mpg bench guy. I would very seriously use a draft pick or two from this year to convince someone to take Miller off our hands. Use the other pick(s) to do the same with Thabeet.
With the 14th pick in the 2011 NBA Draft, the Houston Rockets select... With the 14th pick in the 2012 NBA Draft, the Houston Rockets select... With the 14th pick in the 2013 NBA Draft, the Houston Rockets select... With the 14th pick in the 2014 NBA Draft, the Houston Rockets select... With the 14th pick in the 2015 NBA Draft, the Houston Rockets select...
Then we trade for a superstar, With the 30th pick in the 2015 NBA Draft, the Houston Rockets select... With the 30th pick in the 2015 NBA Draft, the Houston Rockets select... With the 30th pick in the 2015 NBA Draft, the Houston Rockets select...
Like the poster after you , i would be very weary of just floating around waiting to trade for a superstar. For whatever reason, teams are not willing to deal stars to the rockets ( whether it is because we are in the same conference ala Dwill, or for some other reason) And FA's have not been good to us either. I think to get a superstar we need to take matter into our own hands and draft one. Yes i appreciate martins effiency and think he is a great fit on a contending team. Right now we are not a contending team. Sure it would be nice to find a true center ... but in todays NBA that is much easier said than done. Em, i agree with you that Yao coming back is also unlikely which makes our potetial number of options at center even less, so why not let Thabeet take a crack at it. As for offering a pick to get rid of him, He is an expiring contract unless management decides to extend ( which means Morey sees something in him) I feel that these last few games have fans too pumped up for next season... ipersonally think that how we are playing right now is the absolute best we could hope for. Martin has been semi injury prone in the past..... what happens to our hopes if he goes down and we were trying to contend ? I stand by my original ideas of trading both Martin and Scola and trying to get something of value for them. Maybe the original deals i suggested werent the best..... but scola and martin need to go. They are both nice, classy players, but we are gonna contend with them. Letting them go lets us see what we have in Thabeet, 2pat, Williams, Hill, Lee ...etc. None of the centers in this years draft would be ready to make a signifacant contribution anyways...they are all projects. Look if all of those players step up even a little bit, and add to that 2 first round picks this year.... and 2 picks in 2012. Plus whatever we get for Scola and Martin ( picks or young players hopefully) Then we are in amazing position for the season after next... a young hungry core that is capable of getting better every night. It took the thunder 3 years of lottery to become a powerhouse, with the players we have already and DM the GM running the ship we can do it in 1 or 2.
You're putting way too much value on a draft pick, no matter how high, and way too little value on Martin. Players like him don't just fall into your lap that easily. Most players you could draft wouldn't turn out to be better players than Martin. So many people just assume that a good pick automatically equals a "superstar" player, but that simply isn't the case.
I know that fully well.... but with Morey ( so far an outstanding drafter ) running things, I have faith that he will make the right pick. Also Martin did just fall into our lap, we got him for Carl Freaking Landry. And a top pick might not = superstar but it does have alot more trade value than kevin Martin. The number 5 pick in to 2007 draft got boston Ray Allen, a superior player. I guarantee if most people would have to choose between Matrin and a top 5 pick in almost any draft( especially one as stacked as 2012 ) people go that way of the top pick. The player you draft could turn out to be better and it also has more trade value.. Sure nothing is a sure thing but we know for certain that unless we add pieces that are looking like they will be difficult to get ( true center... defensive SF ) then even with martin we will be a mediocre team.
What magic wand would you wave to make a superstar appear? When there's a real franchise guy in the draft, you'll know it by the tanking. More often than not, there's just really good starters and one or two future all-stars. That's not worth trashing your roster for. You honestly think Cleveland or Toronto are going to whip up the league once they draft Kyrie Irving or Derrick Williams? Look at the Western Conference: Teams with a franchise guy: Lakers (Kobe, 32, starting to slow down) Spurs (Duncan, 34, on last legs) Mavs (Dirk, 32, about to pass out of his peak) OKC (Durant, 22) NOH (Paul, 25) Pho (Nash, 37) I see no reason why this team can't be a lower seed the next few years even if we do stand pat and the cap doesn't squeeze some of the other teams. For all our annual moaning about how we'd be a better seed (or simply in) if we were in the East, I'm very happy that we're in the West looking forward the next several years. We've got a good young nucleus set to build on.
Even though they were not always taken with the first pick the last drafts all the way to 2003 have yeilded allstars or players who certainly look to do that in the future. I we have one of the best talent evaluators in the buiness so there is a good chance of us making the correct pick... even if there is no one worth the pick, high picks wield great trade value. 2010- Wall and Cousins look good but it is too early 2009- Griffin is so hyped but is pretty good 2008- Rose, Westbrook 2007- Durant 2006- Roy ( pre injury) 2005- Paul, Williams 2004- Howard 2003- Of couse we know all about this one The point is that unless you are a terrible drafter ( Kahn) ... (morey isnt). If you get a high pick 2 or 3 years in a row, you are gonna be pretty good. Look at the kings. Evans and Cousins look pretty nice... plus they have a high pick this year.... i wouldnt be suprised to see them in the playofs next year. Sure there are risks to tanking but with morey pulling the strings i would'nt be suprised after 2 years we are back in the playoffs, this time as a young team that is improving rather than a veteran team that is not scareing anybody. Plus if you wait until there is a cant miss prospect in the draft then other, worse teams will beat you to the punch. I would rather go out and draft 2 prospects who are not quite at that level, than to mire as the 14th pick or 7th/8th seed waiting for a timmy or LBJ to come along. While true franchise once every 10 year players are nice to have..... its not worth waiting 10 years for them
what superstar can you trade using these #14 picks? forget about superstar, we could not even trade for a freaking starting center for years.....
So, the whole wall of text in the OP boils down to: a. Trade Scola for Harden + unidentifieid filler b. Trade Martin for plus Rubio plus pick + unidentified filler c. Hoping that next year's team will suck and get us a high (or at least mid) lotto pick. A few thoughts: 1. Why would Minny, a young team deep inside the lotto and lacking a PG (among other things), and which doesn't have its own first rounder this year, trade a young propsect for a more expensive 28-year-old vet? Does Martin make Minny a 35-win team instead of what they are now? What good does that do for them? 2. Who are these "fillers"? Scola and Martin both make a lot of cash, so the fillers will have to be significant unwanted salary. Identify. 3. Scola, I believe, may still have BYC status. If so, the salary matching will be difficult. 4. What are the chances that a team with Lowry, Patterson (if he's actuallly good), Hayes, Harden, Lee, etc. will end up really bad? My guess is they won't be worse than a 32-35 win team, likely getting something like a 8th-10 pick, i.e. nothing that different from the 14th pick. There are some real horrible teams in the league each year and that squad's talent level is too high to really match them in terms of bad record.
But market do not agree with you. A good pick can get you a superstar on the market. That was how Nets got Williams. The top draft picks are too damn overrated on the market. That was why we could not get Cousins no matter what we have offered.
I don't know how he will fit in but we have the rights to Lull too... IMO if we can't get CHayes on the cheap than we sould not sign him... Thabeet will NOT turn into much of a player IMO... Miller will be a hard player to move too - old & overpaid.. Hill is NOT the answer... Moving Scola would be nice after his BYC ( 7/1/11 )... Patterson is looking good - a keeper CBud... ( thanks for all you do... you just are not the right person for the job but better than Battier ) TWill... i don't know - Does anyone really? I think Martin is STARTING to play on both ends of the court... Lee is the reason for Martin's play & we should try to keep him - he is a keeper Lowry - SOILD Dragic - OK back up What has helped THIS TEAM is cutting back the rotation... IF Rick will not come back then I want TRDunn...
While the trades originally posted may be mistakes , I still think we should try to trade Scola and Martin. I still actually like the Harden Idea, and the martin one was just a possible. I would rather have posted trades that not everyone likes than make a post with no possible trade provided. As for the martin trade i think minny does it.... they dont have a 1st rounder so adding martin is a way to improve their team while not giving up an important part of their rotation. I'm no wizard when concocting trades and maybe you or other posters have better more realistic trade suggestions. Still.... The main idea is just to trade Martin and Scola and give the season over to the young players on our roster as well as whatever we get from the trades Maybe you are right that the team i've created wont be top 5 pick bad... but devoting a whole season to playing youngsters especially those as raw as thabeet or hill will definantly cause us to be pretty bad. 8-10 is still alot better than picking 14-18. Also maybe not all of our young core is the real deal ( making us suck even more) I would rather find out now when we are in a good position to replace them , rather than waiting for then to take the torch from martin and scola and finding out then that they arent capable starters. I personally feel that we have suitable replacements in Lee and Patterson who would be supllemented by Harden/Hill/Draft. Look the plan has flaws no doubt. But i think that the overall directionis the correct one to take and I trust morey to find adequate value for Martin and Scola. Thanks for the Feedback Carl.... it is appreciated.
There's nothing wrong with posting trades that no one likes. It's your opinion. The problem is posting trades that gm's won't do. OKC is not trading Harden for Scola. They are young team on the rise. They do not want to throw that away for a bad defensive power that can score. They already have scoring from Westbrook and Durant. Scola is a 4th option on that team. They will never trade Harden for Scola not unless you give them something else to sweeten the deal. The Martin trade is stupid for Minny and Houston and also will never happen. So you can suggest all the trades you want but don't expect to get much good feedback when they are ridiculous. Finally it is obvious you don't think much about the team we fielded since the trade but we had one of the top 5 records in the league since then. I repeat we were a top five team since the trade. You don't blow up a top five team. You don't make trades to address our already strong positions. (rubio to back Goran and Lowry), You tweak fix any glaring gaps and try again. This team is in the verge of turning it around. Your scenario blows that apart and destroys what we have been working for.
Minnesota would probably jump at the opportunity to trade Rubio for Kevin Martin. I don't believe Kahn thinks the key to turning his team around is adding another inexperienced rookie.
Thanks for all of the feedback. Even if it is a little harsh lol. I think that the thunder have every reason to do the harden deal. Scola would be that the 3rd scorer and more importantly a post scorer which the Thunder desperately need. They still can switch to defense if needed with Ibaka/Perk.. Harden isn't even starting on that team.. not that he isnt valuable to them but it is much easier to find a viable wing than a post player as the rockets know so well. Harden will be looking to get a contract in a few years and the unless he takes a huge step up next season ( he wont unless he is given the minutes) His value is at a peak. The Thunder would be wise to deal him now while his value is high. Again it is just a suggestion i just want to see him dealt. Perhaps the Martin trade was ill concieved. I still want to trade him and i thought minny ( KAHN !!) might do it . Look at from Minny's angle. They are a piss poor without a lottery pick this season .... so no hope to get better outside of thier core improving ( wes, love, flynn, beasly, darko ..) They are OK young players. A starting lineup of Flynn/Martin/Beasly/Love/Pecovic( or Darko) with Wes J coming off the bench is a welcome sight for Minny fans. The Rockets get a prospect ( 2 or 3 years at least so not interfereing with lowry and dragic's playtime) and maybe a future pick.... i dont know .. Martin is a hard player for me to construct deals around becuase usually only contenders would trade for him and those teams usually dont have anything good for us. Teams i can think of off the top that would like Martin include : Chicago ( maybe). Philly, Dallas, New Orleans, Orlando, and maybe New Jersey. The majority of those teams dont have tradeable assets because either their key to the team... or becase they blew them getting other players ( new jersey) .. Personally i would be content to trade Martin for Expirings and future first rounders ( 2 at least .. because they are gonna be late ) And Finally Yes I dont think too much of the team that finished top 5 record wise after the break. I love the rockets but there is a difference between top 5 record over 1/3 of the season and top 5 team. The record could have been due to an easier schedule... Its not as If I'm blowing most of the team. Just 2 players. One ( scola) who i feel has replacements with higher ceilings in 2pat and hill ( and maybe draftpick) . With Martin i feel that Lee is a better 2 way player and may one day become as skilled as Martin offensively ( If we got Harden, he has a much higher upside than Martin) . Its not as if I want this team in the lottery for the next 10 years. I think that only one after the 2011 draft is required. I simply think we should take a season to see what we really have in our young core that we would no doubt depend on if we tried to make a playoff run next year. At least this way if Twill, 2Pat, Hill, Bud, Thabeet, Dragic, Lowry ( i dont think he is a fluke but look at AB right ?) If those guys arent up to the challenge then at least we are in a great postition to get their replacements with a high draft pick.. rather than being just out or in of the playoffs and realizing that we have too many holes to fix with our current picks/assets. Again i want to thank you for the feedback because sometimes we get excited with an idea and just run with it w/o thinking ... prolly what i did on the martin and scola trades
I don't know if the team is indeed top 5 even though I agree that their performance for the last 25-30 games suggest so-- Sometimes, teams can get hot. I do, however, think that we should give this squad a chance to prove how good they actually are by seeing how they start next season. Of course, if a great trade opportunity comes along, you do it, but in the absence of such a trade, there's no reason to blow things up for the sake of change.
I think this squads true potential lies outside of playing Miller and Budinger 30 minutes each game .... which is exactly what we are going to get if Adelman comes back. We need to play patterson more, hill more , williams more , and thabeet at least a few minutes to really see what we have here. I know our success these last few games was mostly without them ... but if they step up and acheive some of their potential then the ceiling of this team is on a completely different level. Adelman is loyal to his starters to a fault and wont give our young players adequate time to prove themselves.
