After the very excellent posts by hottoddie & The Cat, there is little to add. I guess I'll excercise my enjoyment of numbers and p*** a few people off in the process. Dream for 2000-2001: 1,545 minutes 689 points 431 rebs 88 blocks Last season, Cato played 624 minutes. If he had played 1,545 minutes, here are his #'s: 409 points 349 rebs 77 blocks Not a lot of difference, IMHO. What do you suppose is the statistical likelyhood of a 38 year center playing 2.5x the minutes of a 27 year old center two seasons in a row? Business decisions are made on statistical probabilities. If the Rockets overpay Dream, they have made an extremely poor business decision. Cato will make $6.0M next season. Add in $7.0M to "respect" Dream and you have 31% of the teams salary cap invested in two major question marks. That's just not good business, IMHO. ------------------ Raef to Rocks in '01-'02!
Sorry, but that really is a very silly comparison. There is a reason that Cato didn't play more minutes. "If he had played more minutes" doesn't count. Even if you follow this statistical game, it still IS a lot of difference, actually. I agree with every single one of ZRB's points, except that I think 20 points are not realistic. HOWEVER, I think 13/9/2 blocks with a .500 shooting % are very realistic. Antonio freakin' Davis just got the max for very similar numbers after he had a career year. So WHY would $ 6 million be overpaying... ------------------ Rockets' offseason tasks in order of priority: Get rid of Cato under any circumstances - ideally in a trade (with draft picks from us to them) that brings us Raef LaFrentz (dreaming). Re-Sign Hakeem. Re-Sign Mo Taylor. Re-Sign Moochie and AirBullard. Pick up the Langhi option for another year. Sign-and-trade Shandon Anderson for Bo Outlaw. [This message has been edited by Det The Threat (edited July 22, 2001).]
Well if the Rockets match Toronto's offer, like some people want them to do, then Dream would be locked up until 2004. Duncan comes out in 2003 so the Rockets can't get Duncan. Also signing Dream to a contract like that means that Shandon Anderson and Maurice Taylor aren't coming back. ------------------ "Instruments are like women: After a while, you want to make love to another." - Nicolas Godin of the musical duo Air
Because Antonio Davis is not 38, not injury prone, and played well the entire year. The Raptors did somewhat overpay for Davis, as they did with their other free agents as well. However, given the recent contracts ie: Todd for 30+ mill and McKey for 39 mill, they didn't overpay that much, and the end result of these signings, which will be huge, is the likely resigning of Vince Carter. ------------------
These words should never come out of a Rocket's fans mouth! ------------------ Reporter asks "How close were you to the victim?" Shorty says,"Real close until the roofies wore off. Then she woke up talking about pressing charges, so I took my tongue out of her ass and left." Shorty - Marlon Wayans "Scary Movie" Go Rockets!!! SS
. Hey Cat, I am not sure how reliable TRG's sources at westside are, but he just posted word from Fegan (?), that Houston is not even an option that will be considered by Hakeem. Does that sound about in line, with whats going on? ------------------
Posted by ZRB: Well, that is all the Raptors can afford, and they are offering him a guaranteed Finals appearance. _____________________________________________ A guaranteed finals appearance? What does that mean? IS there a clause that he gets more money if they dont make the finals? or are those just idle words from toronto management? If they will pay him a ton of money if they do not make the finals, then I could see why dream would like that. It would be compensation for no shot at the title - something worthwhile for a career riding off into the sunset... But if these words are just words. then already the argument is discredited.. ------------------ "George W. is like a hybrid of his father and Dan Quayle" - P. Mesku
Det - I did not take it personally and have generally agreed with your prior posts (although you have been absent for awhile). This is an emotionally charged issue to say the least. Not only on this BBS but in real life as well. The average poster is taking the Dream as a FA scenario very personally. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. For my part, I was trying to remove all emotion to get to a bottomline perspective. My original thought (which I never mentioned prior) was this - if Hakeem had never played for the Rockets and was a FA for the first time in his career, how much should the Rockets spend on him? I know it's difficult, but trying to look at it in this manner is a step towards removing the emotion from the issue. ------------------ Raef to Rocks in '01-'02!
Det The Thread, you are kidding right? Do you think after all this BS with Fegan (and Hakeem), that he would not exercise the 2nd year (on a player option). I might be mistaken, but isn't that free money in the bank, no matter if he sits on the IR all year. ------------------
Det, regarding Shandon - I thought Feagan had Shandon opt out of his contract, so he could try to get a contract worth more than 3-4 million. Of course he is not worth it, but do you think that Feagan will include Anderson & Moochie in any final deals with the Rockets? ------------------
By playoff contenders, do you mean having a chance to make the playoffs, or having a chance to do well in the playoffs. I think making the playoffs should be a given, as should getting a top 5 seed. When you are in the playoffs, you are automatically contenders. Yes, there could be injuries, but that is the case with any team. Shaq could break his ankle this summer, and miss the entire season. Possible injuries are not an excuse. I'm pretty sure the Rockets just filled their biggest holes with this draft. Hakeem would fill the hole in the center position. So, where are all the holes in that team? Hakeem would not take away minutes from deserving players. He would take away minutes from Kelvin Cato and Jason Collier. Those two are players that will never, ever, amount to anything. They don't deserve minutes, they deserve to be cut. (sorry Cat)If Hakeem takes away minutes from those two, he is already well-worth 7 million. This may be a young team, but it is a young team coming off of a 45 win season. Why is there an age limit on contending? Finally, Hakeem proved at the end of last season that he was capable of blending in with the Rockets' offense. That is when the Rockets played their best basketball. Yes, you can do well without a post player, but you can do a whole lot better with one. Offer Hakeem a two year, 13 million dollar deal. If he wants more, then forget it. But, asking him to take less, is just being cheap on the Rockets' part. There is no way Moochie deserves more than 2 million. Shandon, no more than 3. Mo Taylor, no more than 6. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks!
It seems everyone has a different vision on Dreams 2001-2002 performance. Yes Cato and Collier are horrible players that are 6-11 plus. I guess I always felt that teams do not specifically must fill out a traditional roster with a PG,SG,SF,PF,C. You place the most effective players on the court and utilize their strenghts. The Rockets are at their best when aggresively pushing the ball up the court and forcing power teams to run. Sure Shaq can beat them down low, but can he beat Mot in a footrace? Can he stand 17-20 feet out and cover MoT? You will never find a dream team in the NBA, but you use each players strenghts when designing an offense. IMHO, I would go the season without a traditonal center, but make opposing centers work hard on defense. Maybe I am crazy, but I hate the inconsistency with Dreams play. Remember, before he had that string of strong play, what was he doing? Take into account his overall performance the past 2 seasons. I am ready to see this team peform without Dream, his crying for the ball, and his ego not ready to accept being 5th best on the team. Call Torontos bluff, see if they will sign him to a multi-year deal. I am not claiming my perception of events will come true, and maybe Dream will prove me wrong. But personally, I think the last 25 games was Dreams peak performance. ------------------
ZRB -- I wouldn't write off Collier completely. I still remember that game he had against Shaq: I can't remember the numbers but he scored in double figures and grabbed a few boards, and left to the tune of a standing ovation. Too bad that he got hurt, but he reminds me of Sabonis too much to call him worthless and say he needs to be cut. ------------------ "I have no regrets except that I wasn't up to keep Randy from getting on that plane." --Ozzy Osbourne on guitarist Randy Rhodes
Well, I still remember the game Cato had against Shaq as well (two blocks), but what has he done? I have seen enough of of Collier, and I really think that he is talentless. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks!
ZRB, I would have to agree with you on Collier. He is a waste of time IMHO, time to move on to another project. Back to Hakeem. Check out his past couple of seasons: 00-01 11.9ppg 7.4rpg 1.2bpg 99-00 10.3ppg 6.2rpg 1.4bpg I personally don't think these numbers will jump up back to his old numbers (15ppg/10rpg/2bpg). The comment on the market value of Hakeem. If teams thought he was worth the saem amount of money as MacCulloch or Mohammed or whoever don't you think they would've pursued Hakeem first rather than the other guys? His market rate is $4.5 million. IMO his health is a huge issue, if not for that he would be making close to $8-10 million easy. But he is 38, demanding a multiyear deal that is guaranteed (wonder why...), and has a reoccuring blood condition. Getting to the playoffs is great and Hakeem can do that, but actually available in the playoffs is what is really needed and with Hakeem there's a good chance he might not be there to play. ------------------
Those two are players that will never, ever, amount to anything. They don't deserve minutes, they deserve to be cut. (sorry Cat) You are really showing your ignorance on basketball here. Why don't you back up your posts with some facts and statistics, instead of the baseless bull**** we had to hear from you during the season? Explain to me why Jason Collier should be cut. Each team needs 2 centers, some 3. There are 29 teams in the NBA, so let's say they need 2.5 centers each. Multiply the two together, you get 72.5. Can you please name me 72 centers better than Jason Collier in the NBA? You obviously don't know much about the draft either. The majority of NBA players don't come in and blow everyone away their first year. It is a constant cycle of improvement that you can only gain through experience and working hard. You'll probably be writing off Griffin if he comes in this year and averages 9 and 6 in 25 minutes a game. So let's talk some about Collier. Don't give me this **** about he's slow, or doesn't have good athletism. That doesn't make you a good player. Give me some statistics, some facts, some information. You told me the other day in the chat that you, like me, were a fan of Sam Perkins. Exactly how is Sam Perkins right now that much better than Collier? He has a little more range on his jumper, and well, that's it. He's much slower running the floor, much worse in post defense, much worse in hustle... should he be cut too? Or is adding 3 feet to your jumper the difference between being CBA material and being a "ZRB favorite". Let's talk about some of the things he can do. At least average in running the floor-- if you guys think he doesn't have enough speed compared to most NBA centers you need to see how slow a lot of these guys are. Offensively, he really has a lot of skills. Has a nice lefty hook near the baseline that is very hard to defend. When he's aggressive inside, he can really score with anyone. He has the post moves, and the soft touch. In addition to that, he has an excellent jumper out to 20-21 feet, probably past Mo Taylor's range, and he can space the floor really well. Did you see how good he did against Shaq and the Lakers on election night in that area? What also really helps him is that when he sets picks, he sets them like a brick wall, and then he knows where to go to get open for the jumper after Steve or Cuttino is doubled. That knowledge and understanding of the game is extremely rare for someone playing his first month in the NBA. He knows the fundamentals of the game very well, but to most those types of things are overshadowed by mad hops and windmill dunks. Defensively, he's not the best, but he's still learning. He really knows how to box out for the rebounds, and he works his ass off in the post. He has the hustle that Cato and others lack, and I can tell he will be successful one day based on that alone. Don't agree? Let's look at some numbers from when Collier was healthy and given the backup center minutes. Season numbers are irrelevant, as he was hurt after the Celtics game in November and was clearly not the same player afterwards. Minutes that he picked up at the end of games are also mostly irrelevant. Take a look at the numbers when he was fully healthy, given the role on the team Rudy needs him to fill, and was given a chance to get in the flow of the game. Lakers November 7 Collier-- 10 pts (4-6 shooting), 4 reb, 13 minutes Boy, this sure screams CBA. In his first week in the NBA, he comes out and does everything we need him to do. He spaces the floor, rebounds, hits the open shots, plays Shaq with as much courage as you can asks, and teams with Hakeem to limit Shaq to a mere 24 points and 7 rebounds on 8-19 shooting. The fans gave him a standing ovation. Grizzlies November 9 Collier-- 8 pts (4-7 shooting), 4 reb, 20 minutes Again, he did everything you could ask. What more could you expect from a rookie in his first month? He hit the open shots, rebounded, set picks well, defended well, etc. His counterpart that game, Ike Austin, was limited to 2 points and 2 rebounds in 18 minutes of play on 1-5 shooting. Blazers November 11 Collier-- 12 pts (5-9 shooting), 4 reb, 21 minutes Another horrible performance. Collier goes out against the deepest frontcourt in the NBA, on a terrible shooting game for the rest of the Rockets, and still finds a way to continually contribute on both ends of the floor. His counterpart on the Blazers, Shawn Kemp, was limited to 8 points and 5 rebounds in 24 minutes. Lakers November 12 Collier-- 10 pts, 3 reb, 16 min He is just pathetic isn't he? Against Shaq and the Lakers, on the road, in the first month of his career, he only gives 10 points and 3 rebounds in 16 minutes. I mean, if he continues on that pace for starters minutes, he would have 20 points and 6 rebounds. Horrible. He should be getting 50 and 20 in the first month. And how did he do on defense? Pretty damn terrific. This was Shaquille O'Neal, one of the most dominant big men of all time. Of all-time. And Collier teamed with Hakeem at the center spot that game to limit Shaq to just 14 points and 5 rebounds on 6-14 shooting. No, it wasn't just Dream at all. Suns November 18 Collier-- 6 pts, 2 reb, 14 minutes This was the game that put the Rockets over .500 for the first time in since 1999. And Collier did his job just fine. Hit his shots, set picks well-- did everything you could ask from a young player in the first month of his career. He also limited his competition, Jake Tsaklidas, to just 2 points and 1 rebound. Pacers November 21 Collier-- 0 pts (0-5), 2 reb, 15 min The only time he didn't bring it on the offensive end. So? Everyone's allowed to have a bad game, or at least they should be. No one can be perfect every night. Those other games should significantly outweigh this one, except according to bashers like yourself I'm sure. And he definitely didn't forget the defensive end. Remember Jeff Foster? The Pacers center many of you were hoping to get in an Hakeem sign and trade? Collier held him to 1 point and 0 rebounds in 12 minutes head to head. Celtics November 22 Collier-- 7 pts, 2 reb, 21 minutes This was the game he got hurt in, so I'm not sure how relevant some of these stats are. But he still did a pretty damn good job, in a game that most of the Rockets couldn't throw the ball in the ocean. For a comparison, Steve Francis had 6 points in 27 minutes in that game. No, these aren't all the games Collier played. But they are all the games in which he was both healthy and given the minutes and role he needed to succeed. Can you really expect him to contribute huge numbers and production when he's thrown on the court for a few minutes in garbage time, with no time period to get into the flow, no structured offense (which he strives in), etc.? And can you really expect him to produce major numbers when his knee isn't near 100%? Those numbers aren't Shaq-like. But you know what? They're pretty damn good for a rookie in the first month of his NBA career, and he still can't seem to get any respect around here. So many of us seemed to crave Austin Croshere last summer at the same time they bashed Collier, never even thinking that Croshere completely sucked for two years. He never had a stretch like Collier did in the limited time he was healthy. And he's a pretty solid NBA player. ZRB, tell me this. Who's the last CBA center, or a center who should be in the NBA, that came into the NBA, and immediately, in the first month of his career, contributed similar numbers and on court results to Collier this year? I can't think of many, if any at all. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site [This message has been edited by The Cat (edited July 22, 2001).]
I don't know about Collier, haven't seen enough of him to make a judgment, but he can't be worse than underachieving Cato. Getting rid of Cato really should be the No. 1 priority...after keeping Hakeem.
I have seen enough of of Collier, and I really think that he is talentless. If you really think this, after less than a month of seeing him play healthy, a month in which he put up fabulous numbers for a backup center, your knowledge and understanding of the game is downright pathetic. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
Unfortunately Cat, Collier-like players come out ever year, and are always used improperly. For that reason, many Rocket fans have already written him off. Hopefully he will prove us wrong. This year should be very interesting in regards to how good NBA coaches are. I am curious to see if Rudy takes advantage of the zone defense and utilizes different defenses throughout the game. ------------------
The Cat, I'm willing to bet that you and ZRB start more threads than any other posters in this forum. I'm beginning to think ZRB got spawned because sunshine asses like you exist. I think I might be right...The Cat created the monster will all love to hate, ZRB! I second that! ZRB, please refrain from flooding the forum with play-by-play posts and recap of every game. No one else does recaps of every game except Clutch. And he doesn't even do it on the BBS. Your take is well deserved. I just ask that you don't repeat yourself ad nauseam like The Cat , which many of us do, but not via a new thread! Honestly man, you add value to this board for anyone on the "I want it NOW" side of fandom and the "dammit Rudy" side. That doesn't mean you have to do it via new threads. as Clutch's slogan says!! Loud. Proud. and Original...but stay on topic that is all I ask from all of you passionate Rabid fans like ZRB, and those Reliant Energy guys. [This message has been edited by crispee (edited July 22, 2001).]
