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My experience, please feel free to bash

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by bobmarley, Nov 16, 2015.

  1. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"

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    Fascinating, and despite your ongoing insults that my sharing my views with you is "intellectually dishonest," I'm glad I've persisted b/c now we've found our very real difference on this.

    To me, yes, someone is European once they are a citizen of a European nation. And established to me means they have lived and worked there "for some time." I never had an idea of "monocle-wearing, Oxford-educated" people (!?). But I think you truly believe Europeans who have less than 3 (more?) generations are not real Europeans. I think your insertion of that image says a lot, and I don't mean that as negative. Many Europeans share the view that there are "real Europeans" (tracing their lineage for hundreds of years) and, well, the rest.

    It may be my American heritage, but I believe an American is someone with citizenship, be they first generation, native, or, like me, roughly fifth generation. My student who just gained American citizenship is just as American now as me. And my friend from the Czech Republic who just got his citizenship -- him too. And (naively I admit), I was applying that same attitude to your region.

    Anyway, to reiterate my point: a Paris terrorist (in a case detailed in the media today) was a bartender who had worked and lived in poor areas of Paris for a long time. He was not a recent immigrant or anything. He had lots of friends and associates and laughed and ate and worked as a Parisian. He was not someone who came over on a desperate boat from Syria, harboring his secret jihadi training and mission. It would be an easier phenomenon to grasp if indeed he was a recent immigrant who did not speak French and had just been trained by ISIS on the battlefield.

    Monocles and education, to me, have no part in determining if someone is European. But I don't pretend that should be true of others. Cheers. I'm out.
     
  2. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    there wasn't crime in Houston until Katrina if you catch my scapegoat.
     
  3. Major

    Major Member

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    1 person likes this.
  4. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Wasn't really meant as an insult :).

    I wouldn't call that established yet, especially if they openly reject the laws and culture of the place that has taken them on.

    Nope, it's not about 3 or more generations. My mom is from Korea, I am 50 % immigrant less than 1 generation removed - I see myself totally as a "real European". The key is in one's own mindset. Neither my mom nor I reject the laws of the country we live in, my mom has totally taken on the customs of the country (I grew up with them). It's not about skin color, blood, and 3 generations or more. It's about the mindset. And again, many Muslim immigrants are clearly different (certainly not all, there are plenty of examples of Muslim people who are just like my mom, and I have no general "suspicion" that they aren't - I am talking my perception, and that of many - I invite you to make your own observations in parts of Berlin, in Duisburg-Marxloh, in the central train station area of Munich, etc.). This has to do with the all-encompassing nature of Islam, and, in addition to religion, with the level of education of some of these people (which makes them different from most US muslims), and with the role of women (I promise you I see it all the time that the man walks ahead, carrying nothing, and the veiled woman walks several meters behind the man, carrying all the stuff. I also see it all the time that young 20something Muslims act very disrespectfully towards women.)
     
  5. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    Acting Christian is tougher than being Christian.

    But hey, I like the singing and post service gossip.
     
  6. bobmarley

    bobmarley Contributing Member

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    Most if not all the terrorist acts that have occurred have had some connection to the opening to Somalian refugees which started in the 1990s I believe.

    Crime isn't quite the same as Islamist extremism.

    BTW, I loved helping the refugees of New Orleans and became friends with quite a few transplants. They were fleeing a natural catastrophe btw.
     
  7. bobmarley

    bobmarley Contributing Member

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    This is a bad example for your argument. While a portion of the Somali refugee community there have done well. There are numbers that have returned to fight and be apart of terrorist actions against Kenya. Also, the FBI is currently investigating many Minnesotan Somalis.

    Couple of things.

    When it comes to accept danger as it comes upon you that is something we agree that God says not to allow fear to dissuade your current path. But to somehow argue that we should seek danger out is quite foolish. It would be like me telling my daughter after she is old enough to drive that she should go by herself to sketchy neighborhoods and give people rides because hey what would Jesus do. BTW, how many refugees are you planning on accepting into your house?

    When Jesus sent out his followers two by two into the Palestinian country side they were told to look for a person of peace and if they were rejected not to reenter and to shake the dust off of their feet.

    During that time to reenter a place that had rejected Christ to tell them again could be quite dangerous even unto being held and having one's life taken. God would have his people to be blameless as doves, but also wise as serpents.
     
  8. bobmarley

    bobmarley Contributing Member

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    What are you talking about? I said if you don't like my opinion than that's okay, Not quite sure how this has anything to with what you are saying.

    Please tell me how having an opinion on a national matter makes me in bed with Caesar? If you recall, people were required to basically view Caesar as a living God. That's not quite what I am gesturing about.

    It is a great song. You are also misrepresenting Marley who had a desire for people to come together. I believe he may take greater issue with those who tell people of other faiths they are not allowed to enjoy his music because he doesn't like you. Please feel free to attached to your shallow argument.
     
  9. bobmarley

    bobmarley Contributing Member

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    I really enjoy living here. We have been here for one year now and my wife and daughter really enjoy it. It has become a great place to raise my daughter.

    There are a few creature comforts of America that I miss, but overall, nothing to big to get in the way of doing what I love here.

    It's really sad because for the most part the Muslim/Christian relations here are quite peaceful, but when the refugees came they have brought in a radicalized belief system that refuses to adjust to the rather peaceful environs they now reside.
     
  10. Nolen

    Nolen Contributing Member

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    I disagree that helping refugees perfectly equates to seeking out danger.

    Base jumping or running with the bulls is seeking out danger. Helping people is helping people. Helping people in the face of danger or personal loss is the path Jesus walked.

    To go into a dangerous neighborhood in order to feed the poor and help the sick would be absolutely Christ-like, no question. It would be essentially Christian.

    You use some weak random action like "give people rides" because that's the equivalent of helping a massive homeless population fleeing war?
     
  11. Nolen

    Nolen Contributing Member

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  12. bobmarley

    bobmarley Contributing Member

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    You can help people in their locations such as Turkey were large amounts of refugees are currently.

    Sending aid and help to them is great and I am for it. But, a complete open door with no restrictions is seeking problems.
     
  13. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

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    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>Here's a good refugee screening question: will you agree to bake a cake for a gay wedding?</p>&mdash; David Burge (@iowahawkblog) <a href="https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/status/666696871054700544" data-datetime="2015-11-17T19:18:15+00:00">November 17, 2015</a></blockquote>
    <script src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
     
  14. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    I agree. Despite what officials say, the screening effort is much more difficult with the Syrian refugees than say, Iraqi refugees years before.

    Turkey seems overrun with Syrian refugees. At Istanbul I couldn't go five minutes without seeing people beg for money. Not sure if the beggar was Syrian but one dude was particularly aggressive as if being an Asian tourist meant I had money to give away.

    Many ****ed up things there
     
  15. bobmarley

    bobmarley Contributing Member

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    When I travel back to states I used to use Turkish airlines, but since most of this I am avoiding Istanbul. I never really liked that airport much anyways. Lot of rude people there. One guy nearly ran over my daughter once and didn't even excuse himself or apologize, just stared at us.
     
  16. Major

    Major Member

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    I'm not sure I understand the essence of this thread. You moved to Kenya to share the gospel, no? And you and your family accepted at least a little bit of danger to do so, especially now that Al Shabaab is there. Isn't that the heart of evangelical Christianity? To show the love of Christ to non-Christians and bring them closer to Jesus, despite potential risk to yourself as the messenger? And what is truly important is opening people to the Kingdom of Heaven rather than focusing on your time on the Kingdom of Earth, no?

    If my premise is correct, is there any more powerful way to reach non-Christians and show them the love of God than by inviting those fleeing a warzone and in tremendous need into your home (home being the US here) with an opportunity to surround them with people of faith and show them the love of Christ? Why would you turn away an incredible opportunity to minister to people in the most desperate of situations because of some tiny fear of someone with an evil heart in the mix? (And aren't those people worth ministering too also?) Isn't bringing those people closer to God and giving them the opportunity to reach eternal life the most important thing? This seems to be the absolute essence of what evangelical Christianity is about.
     
  17. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    I still like Istanbul, but I don't think they or the rest of the nation will be capable of handling so many refugees whom aren't capable of quickly integrating with the host society. I mean if they're really fighting daresh, that probably gives them a long leash to impose even more civil liberties violations. On the other end, at some point the charity well dries up and Turkey's own poor starts lashing back.

    I saw so many women and children begging which made me wonder where the men where. Wherever they go and the numbers they pose, it feels like they're cement blocks sinking towards the bottom of the ocean.
     
  18. bobmarley

    bobmarley Contributing Member

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    It is what I have seen happening here and what the people tell me about as a nation. This is not so much about me as about the refugee situation in Kenya. It seems to me a simplified explanation of why the US needs to be careful of just accepting a large number of refugees and not having a clear plan to take care of the situation in Syria. Does America just plan for them to stay here forever or do we have a plan to stabilize Syria so that we can send refugees back? I have a hard time believing these refugees are all being placed in Christian homes here in America. The best place to help these people is in Syria. There needs to a unified plan from Western nations to remove the threat of radicalized islamic terrorist groups such as ISIS and others so that these people can go on living their lives in their own country.

    Also 5 of the richest Muslim countries in the world are denying their entrance siting the danger our terrorism.

    For those that God has called to enter Muslim countries that are generally closed to Christian workers, I pray for them, and for fruit. That is a work God does not call everyone too. He has called me here to work with Kenyan people and that is what I am doing. Please let me know when you accept your first Syrian refugee into your home. I will wait to hear from you.
     
  19. bobmarley

    bobmarley Contributing Member

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    I have reread many of the posts in this thread and something stood out to me.

    We must differentiate between government and the church.

    One role of government is to maintain order and provide safety for its citizens. It is not required to "love" all people. It is required to protect its people. It should know who its citizens are, protect its borders, defend itself, and try to provide security and necessities for all citizens for whom it is responsible.

    The church, or Christians individually and collectively, is responsible to love, pray for, be hospitable, and do good to all people, and especially to the household of faith. My personal and Christian response to fleeing refugees, and even to terrorists, is to pray for them, love them, give to help feed and clothe them, and share the gospel of Jesus with them in any way possible.

    That is not the responsibility of the government.

    The president and Congress must make decisions to protect the citizens while the church must seek to love all people and proclaim truth to them. We must separate the responsibilities of the two.

    The constitutional role of the U.S. Government is "to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".

    The responsibility of Christians is to pray for our government so we can live quiet and peaceful lives, preach the gospel to all ethnic groups, care for widows and orphans, and love all people, even our enemies. The church is not called to do the work of government and the government is not called to do the work of the church. Confusing the two will lead to confusion and ineffectiveness in both.

    If someone comes to this country illegally, the government has failed. If they move next door to me and I do not love them and show Christ to them, I have failed. It is not my job to deport them and it is not the government's job to love them and lead them to Christ.
     
  20. Major

    Major Member

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    Except your personal response is actually to ask your government to reject the fleeing refuges, despite ZERO evidence so far that they would even be a threat. As noted by many sources here already, there are much better ways to get into the country than to pose as a refugee and go through a year-long vetting process that results in around 1% of applicants actually being resettled. If ISIS wants to be here, it's unlikely to hide amongst refugees. Europe is a different story because the process is very different - but even there, France just reaffirmed that they will continue to welcome Syrian refugees there. This is all just xenophobia.

    You're right that the Church and Government have different responsibilities. But as a Christian, you should WANT your government to allow you to love them and give to help feed and clothe them, share the Gospal, etc. Instead, you're hoping and asking that the government keep them away from you (if you lived in the US) so you don't have to do so.
     

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