SLA: Mobley becomes the Rocks' sixth man. Chicago might do it because they get a first rate crowd draw for their arena.
Oh NO! all the bad trade threads have rubbed off on Macbeth! i thought this day would never come, whats next? Clutch proposing a Moochie for Payton trade? but seriously, its not an impossible trade. However, im still not sold on crawford, as hes a streaky player and possibly more turnover prone than mobes. Also, i dont know if the bulls want a person like cuttino as they will be focusing thier development on their two towers. Toronto is in ok shape, Our team loses a little and I actually like cato as he is actually beginning to make better decisions this year, something we are in dire need for.
Just got back in... Ok, here's the rationale for the trade; A) Given that our backcourt situation is not improving. I am not sold on giving up, but many people seem to b. That said, unlike the most popular angle in the latest frustration with Steve, if you're gonna trade one of them, you gotta go with Mobes and move Steve to the 2. Problems with that; Need 1: point guard who is A) Sg size, B) not a ball hog, and C) a decent shooter. There simply aren't many of them out there. Even SNow is a little on the small side. Alvin Williams, but the Raps won't trade himn right now cause A) He's been hurt, thus lowring his value, B) He;s been their heart and soul for years, and C) He's just starting to get back to health, meaning his traade value can but increase. Snow isn't going anywhere, according to the Philly GM. Ok, who else is there? Penny? Maybe, but he's only ever good for 40-50 games a season. WHo else? Lebron? Seriously, take a look around the league, there just aren;t that many decent big points guards availiable. Ok, there's Crawford. Need 2: A legit PF. Cato is doing the most important stuff we need a pf to do, but his lack of a 10-15 footer is killing Yao, cause teams are doubling off Cato relentlessly. There are pf's who can do what Cato is doing ( rebound, play interior defense, and be even tougher) who CAN hit the 10-15 footer. There's Kurt Thomas, Juwan Howard, Brian Grant, and maybe a couple others. Thing is, they're very valuable because they are a needed part of so many teams. Which is why, if you look, virtually all of them have huge contracts, and many of them are either not available, or cost a lot in return. Davis wants out of Toronto, although he's not saying as much, it's been evident in his demeanor. But, as he;s Toronto's only legit big man, he's not gonna be given away cheap. On a winning team, he's a non-nonsense leader who would punish anyone taking liberties with Yao. One thing to remember about Cato...he is one season removed...one season as a back-up...from being an albatross contract. People here have started to fall in love with him, but other GM's see a big contract with exactly 0 successfull seasons as a starter, a motivation problem who has spurts of good play and spurts of lackluster play. As a pf, he hasn't shown that he'll develop the 10-15 footer that will take the pressue of of Yao, which is direly needed. And finally, if Cat goes, we need a scorer to come off the bench. I can't remember who suggested he might be behind Boki, but certainly would be behind Pike and Griff...ih, we're talking about a guy who was the no. 6 draft his year, has lead his team in scoring for a season, is still young, and has put up better numbers than any of the guys mentioned. He's just one of those guys who can score...before he was hurt last year, he averaged over 15pts/game for the previous 5 seasons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of Pike, Grffin, nor Bokie have ever averaged 15ppg for even one season. The problem with Murray has been that A) He lights it up off the bench so much that people always try and make a starter out of him, where his defensive defficiencies are then exposed. To be fair, he's improved his defense, but it's still ok at best. But as a pure scorer/6th man, he's pretty damn good. These were his numbers for the 5 seasons before last, which he missed with an injury; 97-98 LAC 79 65 32.6 .481 .353 .748 2.20 3.90 6.10 1.8 1.49 .68 2.16 2.40 15.4 98-99 LAC 50 13 26.3 .391 .330 .803 1.20 2.70 3.90 1.2 1.16 .40 1.98 2.10 12.2 99-00 CLE 74 72 32.0 .451 .367 .761 1.70 4.00 5.70 1.8 1.42 .49 2.49 2.80 15.9 00-01 CLE 78 46 28.5 .423 .370 .735 1.30 3.00 4.40 1.6 1.06 .35 1.81 2.20 12.8 01-02 CLE 71 68 32.6 .436 .424 .817 1.10 4.10 5.20 2.2 .99 .61 1.99 2.10 16.6 So the trade I proposed solves both of our primary needs, also nets us a good 6th man, and costs Cato, Mobley, and a late first round pick. IMO it makes us an instant contender THIS year, as we'd have all the pieces, an established scoring order, established role players who know their role, and cna play defense. The downside is AD's age, but to be honest, he'd be rejuvinated by being allowed to play his natural position again instead of having to bang with centers every game. He's the only player in the deal who's been an All Star, and has been hampered by being the only inside offense Toronto has, and playing out of position. He's alos one of those Kevin Willis frask who will play till he's over 40, and spent the 1st few b-bal;l years playing in Europe, so he hasn't taken the same kind of pounding most players his age have endured. He's a great interior defender, rebounder, with a solid 10-15 footer, and decent, workmanlike post moves, and very good athleticism for a big man, really gets up and down the floor well. I really think it's an upgrade, and more to the point, BOTH of our weak spots are filled. Francis is free to concentrate on scoring, Yao isn't doubled every time down...it would help us. In return we give yp Cat, a solid player, and Cato, a gamble for another team, whoi, let;s face it, is never going to be anything like a star; at best he develops into a solid center for an Easter team with limited offense, but good rebounding and defense. At worst, he returns to his usual pattern of 10 good games, 15 bad games, etc., with coaches wondering how to keep him motivated. I think people here are over-valuing his trade merit right now. As a starter for another team, he;s a gamble with a big contract who's NEVER had a solid season as a starter while having had several opportunities.
You can throw more and more and more words at us, but that will not change the fact that Davis is old and washed up and that Crawford will want a huge contract. NIKEStrad has explained it perfectly, this trade favors Toronto. You have been trying to get us to like the idea of taking Davis off your (Toronto's) hands for a while now. Stop it.
Macbeth, if Fizer recovers quickly from his injuries then it will be a good trade for the Raptors. Cato would give them a good backup center who could possibly start for them. Fizer is a young PF and Rose's production might go up too. Houston has done well in your trade, but I don't think Chicago is getting much in return except for Mobley and maybe Mo Pete if he starts doing well again soon. J.Williams improves their rebounding but doesn't give them a good lowpost defender which they need.
Among other things, I'm getting annoyed at your repeated insinuations that I am trying to screw over Houston because I favor Toronto, which is simply not true, and insulting. You don't like the trade I suggest...color me surprised and call it a day, but stop this "Not surprisingly, I think Toronto comes out best in this one. " crap, please. We know where we stand with each other. I let about 6 snipes of your go in the Canary thread because A) I didn't want to get off topic, and B) Like every other time, it would just follow the same pattern McB makes a post SJC takes a swipe, either suggesting McB is too high on himself, or posts too long, etc. McB ignores. SJC does it again, and again, and again. McB finally asks SJC what his problem is with him, and SJC invariably replies something to the effect that " Oh, no, no, no! I really think you're a nice guy. I'm just trying to help you stop being so wordy and insecure... " Serioously, SJC, I have nothing at all against you as a poster, and if you didn't feel the need to maek snide comments in my direction on a daily basis, and then run and hide behind " Don;t be so touchy...are you insecure?" every time I try and address it, I'd have no problem with you at all. To me, secure people don't feel the need to snipe at people repeatedly when those same people usually don;t even respond. I still say that, no matter what the witnesses say, it wasn't me who ran over your dog.
Saleem...I think that, on paper, Chicago seems to lose a bit, but Chicago is desperate to get rid of Rose and his contract. Rose has become a problem in the locker room, and is ffeuding with managment. They have been willing to take on the players I suggested for the players I suggested, only I added Mobley and Crawford to it, and removed D. Marshall. They have even repeatedly inquired about A Davis. SO obviously the players in question are not a problem for them, and what they most want is salary flexibility, which this gives them. Chicago sources are alrweady reporting that Paxson again intends to try and revisit the trade talks with Toronto, though Grunwald is less keen.
I think we need to get mroe veteran Guards, I don't know if I could stand going through Crawford's growing pains. It's just his second season really, and he's still learning the ropes.
Even if we move Francis to the 2, I don't see much improvement. He will still have the same problems. He will still dribble too much and suck on the break and make bad decisions at the end of the game.
Nike...it was you I guess I was responding to whith the Murray would be behind Griff, Pike and maybe Boki point, which I think is nonsense, but there's another couple of points in here that I wanted to address. "Toronto gets: the only legit center..." While I feel that he's not a natural center, Davis is, in fact, the onlt player in this trade to have been an All Star, it wasn't that long ago, and it was at center. Now you can say it was for the East, which is a legit qualifier, but it oesn;t alter the fact that, releative to available big men, AD was a more than legit center. Also, even in your best view, do you ever see Cato making the ASG? I think Toronto would be lucky if he can stay a decent starter for a full season, something he's never done. I watch both teams, and AD ( along with Alvin) are my favorite Raps. As he's the kind of player we need, and we're more ready to win now than Toronto is, I have seen it is a perfect match for a while. And 2nd point: "the rebounding difference might be hard to compensate for, you don't think 3 CBA scrubs could combine for 3.5 ppg? " I think you're just kind of glossing over 10.5 rebounds a game, no? Add that to Houston every night, and what do you think our record would be? In that rebounding is the main asset of the two top players Toronto is trading, giving it the sly elbow is sort of doing their position a disservice. And, still, they do lose 3.5 ppg. Yes they're trading 6 players, but 2 of them are for salary reasons only, and add up to less than 1 pt/game total, so the remaining 4 are subject to the difference as shown, unlike the Garnett comparision.
You are contradicting yourself. First you said he was playing out of position, now you say he is more than a legit center. Why do you keep bringing up that he was an all-star? Rice was an all-star several times, so what, he could hardly get off the bench in Houston anymore. Even Hakeem, who was a million times better than Davis ever was, could not play well anymore at Davis' age. Now, let's have a look at Davis' FG % over the last seven years: 97-98: .481 98-99: .471 99-00: .440 00-01: .433 01-02: .426 02-03: .407 03-04: .375 If that is not a trend, then what is???? Also, you keep ignoring the fact that Crawford will want a big contract after this season.
He won't dribble as much because he won't bring the ball up AS MUCH. We'll also improve in terms of fast break opportunities, since he'll be the recipient of fast break passes, he won't be making the passes as often anymore.
It's a contradiction because you use it as an excuse for the low fg %. Did Ralph Sampson have a lower field goal % because he played PF or C? I don't think so. You brought it up twice in this thread and numerous times in previous threads in which you tried to "sell" us your Antonio Davis. So if his horrible field goal % is not even excused by past injuries, then what if, which is very probable for a player past 35, he gets an injury that brings his performance down further? His fg % might just sink to .250 He has had Bosh this year, his fg % has not gone up, but down. So he has been taken heavy pounding for the last several years. A valid explanation why his fg % has been going down, but also another reason why we would NOT want this guy on the Rockets with his bloated contract. And if he shoots less than he currently does in Toronto, he is not anywhere close to a legit double double.
I meant to say "he has been taking heavy pounding". Also, you are still ignoring the fact that Crawford will want a big contract after this season.
I agree that the pounding vs. C's is a negative. I think that he's still in great shape, and given the number of inquiries Grunwald gets about him, I guess many others do as well. I disagree that he wouldn't be a double double; he'll get shots more suited to his abilities, and enough put backs to avg 12-10. Re: Crawford's contract demands, I honestly don't know enough about his situationto comment...is he UFA come season's end? RFA? Club option? What? If he's UFA, I agree, that would be a negative factor.
I won't quote because we have kind of messed up the quoting thing by now. I think that you would like to see Davis on the Rockets because you like him as a player and have watched him a lot, and you like the Rockets. It's just like when I really wanted Detlef Schrempf (one of my favorite players) to end his career as a Rocket. I did not really care that much how much sense it would make, or yes, I did care, but I would just make myself believe it made sense, and I posted numerous times suggesting trade proposals that would bring him here. So I can understand where you are coming from, but for the reasons given, I still think it makes zero sense for the Rockets and would hurt them a lot. Regarding Crawford, he will be a free agent after this season, but they can make him a qualifying offer. But his agent was already quoted saying that he wants a deal starting at 8 mio. dollars.
