cohen: "We should all be careful when using this trump card." RR: That trump card will never be played against me because I will never trivialize the murder of some 6000+ innocent American citizens or foreign nationals on our soil. cohen: "These Rednecks are getting around!" RR: Of course they are places besides TX or AZ. I only referenced the cases most often cited on this board. What is your point besides trying to distort my observation? cohen: "Big difference, we are America. We have our own principles to live by, regardless of what others do." RR: Did I call for "open season" on Middle-Easterners? Again, what is your point? If you don't think that this is a new era calling for new precautions and new safety considerations, just say so. See if that argument stands up. Don't insinuate that I've called for open season on Middle-Easterners. I have never justified crimes against our ME citizens or visitors. I have only said that I understand the new and deep-seeded concern. I think we are living up to our own principles-- not perfectly mind you but very well under the very dire circumstances. Would you rather be an American in Afghanistan right now? Shanna thinks that thought-provoker is merely a subject-changer; I think it is an argument-maker!!
For me, I am very warry of ME's. I may be wrong for this and I know that not all ME's are bad people. I worked for a company for a long time, where I was the only white guy in a company of all ME. They were great people and treated me great. It was a joke, even thought it was probably true, that I was their token white guy. Unfortunately I still feel the way I do and it is not because I am ignorant. I know that I should not feel this way but I do. I cannot help the way I feel. I do not go out of my way to discriminate against people and I think that the things people have been doing to Muslims and the such is very wrong. I also feel that people are way to PC. No matter what people do or how much education there is about racism, it will always be. As for the reason I feel that people are wary or ME's. I do not on a regular basis have contact with ME's. Had I not worked with them I would have never had any or little contact with them. I think that this is the norm for most people. What we see on TV are people who fight over a little piece of crap land (Gaza Strip) for centuries and throw rocks at each other. Almost every country in the ME has a threatening conotation in most peoples minds. Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Afganistan, etc. We see pictures of ME's carrying assault rifles and shooting them in the air when they kill an Isreali or whatever. We see them shooting their guns and cheering when we were attacked. That will flat piss you off as an American and when someone says that they are an Afgan American you naturally lump them in. You become suspicious as to whether they feel the same way. There have been ME peace talks for as long as I can remember. I believe, and I may be wrong this is only an opinion and it is non PC to say, that the average person considers the people in the ME to be animal like in the way they treat women and the way they kill and fight they way they do. It has been documented many many times how men treat women in the ME. They are oppressed and killed and mutilated and the stories are horrible. I know that these things happen else where in the world. I am not saying that this is right or that the thinking is right. I just think that this is why most people think the way they do. I hope that everyone can be tolerant and everyone can work to accept all. I try very hard with it everyday. I try to treat all people the same but unfortunately it doesnt always happen and when it doesnt I try to learn from it and become a better person. If we can learn to do that all of those people did not die in vain.
MB, Here's the thing: You don't have to treat everyone the same. But, it is racist to treat people differenlty simply because they are of a different race. You can be a religious bigot and treat people different solely based on their religion. That is not racist, but it is wrong. You can be a nationalistic bigot (similar to Nazi Germany, which was an extreme form of nationalism) and treat people differently solely based on what country they're from. That is not racist, but it is wrong. You can be a gender bigot and treat people differently solely on their gender. That is not racist, but it is wrong. You can be a sexual bigot and treat people differently solely on their sexual preference. That is not racist, but it is wrong. There are a million different ways for a person to differentiate between people. It's when you treat someone differently based on these differences when things go wrong. As I said, you don't have to treat everyone the same. People are different. There are blacks I don't like. There are whites I don't like. There are gays I don't like. There are Christians I don't like. There are Muslims I dont' like. There are individuals of all walks of life that I don't like. But, at the same time, there are individuals of all walks of life, that I do like. I make my decision to like or dislike someone based on my experiences with them, not my experiences with people similar to them.
cohen: As I said, I was just going with the most-often-cited examples of retaliation in AZ and TX. Your "insertion" of my word redneck into your titles seemed to be of a mocking spirit. I used the word "redneck" to distinguish the vigilante from the great mass of law-abiding Americans. I don't know if they were really rednecks. Some of our "new precautions" may not be legalistic; they may be personal choices. Given that all 19 of the suicide terrorists were in the US on legitimate visas, how can you criticize people who are suspicious of MEs who are also here on legitimate visas. No one on board those 4 ill-fated planes was afraid of those MEs; now many or most boarding a plane with MEs would be unsettled by it. While under attack from these nuts, to just let our convictions be tested is to invite more tragedy. The Afgan-US contrast is just a straight-forward question. I am not willing to condemn America or Americans who have backslid on our commitment to an open society--- unless a crime is committed. Let the rule of law prevail there. If the roles were reversed in this situation of terrorism (i.e. The US had killed 6000+ innocents in a terroristic act in Afghanistan), how many of the 5 Million Americans ostensibly living in Afghanistan would NOT wake up with slit throats? I am merely defending my arguments from your criticism; that's different from being defensive.
It also sounds to me when reading this thread that people are thinking that Middle Easterners, Muslims are not Americans. Hoop T stated: "Also, say you hear on the news that a group of Muslims were asked to be thrown off a plane by Americans in light of the WTC attacks, but that request was denied, and the plane took off with those Muslims on it." Why are you assuming that the Muslims are not Americans???? What makes up an American??? Why are you assuming that the group of Muslims being thrown off the plane are not Americans??? Every American should have the same rights as every other American in this country including Muslims or Middle Easterners.
Why are you assuming that I am assuming? I assumed nothing. This was a "what if" situation that I cooked up, and if you READ it, it says "say you hear on the NEWS that a group of Muslims..."
Any citizen of the United States of America is an American. See, the whole point of my WHAT IF situation was to evoke thoughts and assumptions on the situation, how you would assess it, and what would you feel? In NO WAY, SHAPE or FORM did I assume anything. That was for others to do in their responses. I laid out a situation to see how others would treat it. Now stop ruining my test.
Man, I can't tell you how warm and fuzzy this thread makes me feel. First, I hoped and prayed my friends in the NYC financial district were okay. Then I greived for those unfortunate families who lost their loved ones. Then I worried about getting on a plane twice a week to do my job. Then I recoiled at the isolated comments I got from strangers for being brown and being "one of them". Now a significant and vocal group here tells me I should accept the fact that the "true" Americans are justified in treating me poorly because of the disgusting actions of a few. This is shameful. Screw you. Not only do I have to suffer the same pain and anger every other American does because of the attack. Now I have to suffer the scorn of the narrow minded, too. Good job guys. I suppose it's always easier to Unite behind a common enemy. Too bad you're making another enemy of your fellow Americans. Continue on with your justifications. In case I got you off track, let me remind you where you were: "I'm scared, so it's okay for me to strip innocent human beings of their rights and dignity." Carry on.
TL: "Now a significant and vocal group here tells me I should accept the fact that the "true" Americans are justified in treating me poorly because of the disgusting actions of a few." RichRocket: Nobody said that this fearful group were the "true" Americans. They are Americans like anyone else. Everyone's life is different from now on for some period of time. How would you allay the fears of "those" out there? "They" weren't afraid of those 19 terrorists when they got on those 4 doomed planes.
Good post. I agree with you. However, an unwriten rule of the board is only right wingers are allowed to use emotional and strong language in arguing their points.
You really haven't been around very long have you? Yikes, just read some of the political threads that have floated around here and you will see that your statement above is totally unfounded. Seriously.
Originally posted by RichRocket cohen: As I said, I was just going with the most-often-cited examples of retaliation in AZ and TX. Your "insertion" of my word redneck into your titles seemed to be of a mocking spirit. I used the word "redneck" to distinguish the vigilante from the great mass of law-abiding Americans. I don't know if they were really rednecks. It is important for all of us to recognize that these are not isolated instances, either by rednecks or geographically. Your comment was missleading. I corrected your comment for all readers here, and added the '' to try to avoid offense to you. Some of our "new precautions" may not be legalistic; they may be personal choices. And we have to be responsible for these choices. Given that all 19 of the suicide terrorists were in the US on legitimate visas, how can you criticize people who are suspicious of MEs who are also here on legitimate visas. No one on board those 4 ill-fated planes was afraid of those MEs; now many or most boarding a plane with MEs would be unsettled by it. While under attack from these nuts, to just let our convictions be tested is to invite more tragedy. It does not invite more tragedy, it protects us from new tragedies. Be aware of things. Be cautious. Just don't trounce on the God-given rights of inncent people. The Afgan-US contrast is just a straight-forward question. I am not willing to condemn America or Americans who have backslid on our commitment to an open society--- unless a crime is committed. Let the rule of law prevail there. We are not discussing open society here, but individual acts of racism. They are different things. I agree with letting the rule of law prevail. If it does, anyone involved in these acts of hate will be locked up. They are not just morally wrong, but most are illegal. If the roles were reversed in this situation of terrorism (i.e. The US had killed 6000+ innocents in a terroristic act in Afghanistan), how many of the 5 Million Americans ostensibly living in Afghanistan would NOT wake up with slit throats? Firstly, those 5 million Muslim are Americans. Secondly, even if the Afghanis did that, does that make it right? I am merely defending my arguments from your criticism; that's different from being defensive. You seemed to be reading into my response things that I was not saying, and also felt that someone was branding you a racist. I personally have not implied any such thing.
cohen: as regards MEs, I have harmed no MEs in formulating these responses or in actually reacting to these tragedies. In fact, just today my daughter and I had lunch at a great pita restaurant owned by MEs. In reversing the roles in this tragedy, nothing is made right. I am just pointing out that the American response to being attacked is more civilized than would be the Afghani who would immediately get medieval on the asses of unfortunate individuals. Here they face stares and suspicion and very few outright attacks. Your argument depicts people who acts concerned as racist, since I defend those people, fair to assume you would indict me with the same epithet, no?
TL, Your input here is much appreciated. It is important to 'put a face' on this issue. Although understandable, I hope that you do not become bitter over this. You would be letting those 'narrow-minded' individuals determine who you are. Many here have spoken out against these hateful and inexcusable actions. We just need a few more to show up in this thread. I am sorry for what you have to endure, and I hope that this situation eases up for you soon.
Hoop-T. Perhaps you're right. I've lurked on sports board for at least a few years. I remember the draft where they got Mobley and Dickerson, but probably not much before that. I just discovered the hangout board a few months ago. Hopefully you're correct and I'm wrong in my statement. It does seem like people often criticize my tone (in a couple of post correctly as far as I'm concened) but don't respond to my arguments. Alternatively it could be just outrage from lack of exposure to different points of view. White Houston is a generally right wing place. For instance, many of my neighbors have assumed that I must be a conservative Republican since I'm a white guy in a pretty nice subdivision.
The great thing about this BBS is that all are USUALLY welcome, as long as opinions and arguments have some validity. Trolls are welcomed with much resistance at times though. I myself have disagreed with some of your opinions, but regardless, they are your beliefs and you obviously feel strongly about them, and I can respect that. But trust me when I say, both wings, left and right and everyone in between use strong language at times and emotion when arguing points.
This is the crux of it, why should TL have to allay anything? He is one of US. He is no more a terrorist than you, yet people treat him that way. There is NO excuse for that. If anyone fellow Americans need their fears allayed, ALL of US should do it. Not just TL.
