<B>By the way, aren't those Middle Easterners who are committing the acts of terrorism? Since the average citizen can't tell the good guys from the bad until it is TOO LATE, isn't it reasonable to be a little wary or suspicious of any Middle Easterner-- unless you know him/her really well? </B> Only White Americans are committing hate crimes against Middle Easterners at this time. Since the average citizen can't tell the good white people from the bad until it is too late, it should also be reasonable to be wary or suspicious of any white person unless you know him well. I think the next time there are 3 Middle Easterners on an airplane, they should demand all the white people be kicked off, because they are afraid the white people will commit hate crimes against them.
<i> Let me ask you when did you stop being afraid of being murdered or were you ever afraid of being murdered in Boston? Yet this single act of terrorism reduced YOU to being fearful and sleepless as I recall. Explain that. I won't take the time to look up the threads, but I recall them clearly. </i> Pretty good memory! <A HREF="http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?threadid=21847">Is anyone else afraid?</A> Mango
nolen: "If you're annoyed listening to people post reasons why middle-easterners' hatred is understandable, maybe you can understand why I'm annoyed that you bother to show why kicking guys off a plane because of their skin color is understandable. RR: I don't see anyone here postulating while middle-easterners hate is understandable. I have only asserted that I understand why people are afraid and why they are suspicious of people of middle-eastern descent. I haven't condoned anyone's actions; I only said that I understand their deep-seeded concern. shanna: "Only White Americans are committing hate crimes against Middle Easterners at this time. Since the average citizen can't tell the good white people from the bad until it is too late, it should also be reasonable to be wary or suspicious of any white person unless you know him well." RR: When is your next trip to Afghanistan planned? How long do you think a thousand Americans could live in Kabul, Afghanistan? The death toll their would dwarf the death toll here. I believe that I heard that there had been some 250 reported hate crimes since 9/11 against how many MILLIONS of middle-easterners in the US. How many of those were fatal or even very serious? America and Americans are not perfect. If you are so understanding, try to understand a great load of fear, horror and uncertainty which has been dumped into our lives. BTW, I think your attempt to reverse the analogy trivializes what happened to several thousand innocent Americans on 9/11. What a stupid redneck in TX or AZ does is considerably less a threat to us ALL than what several hundred or thousand well-financed, committed terrorists have done to America-- Muslims and Sikhs included. I bet Bin Laden's b@stards killed more of their fellow Muslims in one fell swoop than the totality of these hate crimes will have when it is all said and done.
<B>RR: When is your next trip to Afghanistan planned? How long do you think a thousand Americans could live in Kabul, Afghanistan? The death toll their would dwarf the death toll here.</B> Ummm, what does that have to do with anything? Quit trying to change the subject. <B>I believe that I heard that there had been some 250 reported hate crimes since 9/11 against how many MILLIONS of middle-easterners in the US.</B> What's your point? There were 250 incidents of hate crimes against a few million ME in the US. There were 4 incidents of terrorism against 300 million Americans. The likelihood of the former happening again is higher than the latter. Why are people only allowed to be legitimately afraid of the latter? <B>How many of those were fatal or even very serious? America and Americans are not perfect. If you are so understanding, try to understand a great load of fear, horror and uncertainty which has been dumped into our lives. </B> I do understand that. Fear doesn't in any way justify the abuse and mistreatment of Arab American citizens. You're looking at someone's skin color and denying them fair treatment because of your own psychotic paranoia. At the same time, you don't seem to think they should be able to deny you any rights due to their own psychotic paranoia, which is actually more reasonable and more likely to result in personal harm than yours is (I assume by ignoring the content of my message which you quoted, you don't think Arab Americans should have the right to kick you off a plane. Correct me if I'm wrong). Sugar coat and justify it all you want, but that's blatant discrimination, plain and simple.
<B>BTW, I think your attempt to reverse the analogy trivializes what happened to several thousand innocent Americans on 9/11. What a stupid redneck in TX or AZ does is considerably less a threat to us ALL than what several hundred or thousand well-financed, committed terrorists have done to America-- Muslims and Sikhs included. </B> That's a bunch of crap. Your fear is for your own <I>personal</I> health -- not for the rest of us. One Muslim person faces a greater danger from a white person in America right now than vice-versa. Yet you have no problem denying a Muslim his or her rights due to your fear, but not the opposite. Yeah, that makes sense. It's a lot easier to justify discrimination when you're not losing any of your rights.
There's all the difference in the world. "Reasonable" implies justification. "Understandable" implies that it's anticipated. It's understandable that I resent having to write a 5 page paper tonight. It is not reasonable. I was afraid. In light of current events, that was understandable. Boston was a target. Yet I don't recall making any racist comments about Arabs, either. Problem is, there isn't a point here. You poor fool. I never made a single bigoted comment. Go find one. You're being silly. I'm not critiquing fear, but rather ignorant fear that leads to bigotry. Let me show you the syllogism you're articulating: haven was afraid of a terrorist attack he criticizes people who are racist and afraid therefore he is being unfair That's an incorrect use of logic based on a faulty inference from two accurate premises. If you disagree, argue at the symbolic, logical level, unless you're afraid that you may discover you have no basis for your argument. Ok. Let's put it this way. Racists suck. Not all racists lynch black people, but they still suck. That's my point.
I think it's safe to say that the total number of airline deaths resulting from worn out/faulty equipment far exceedes the number of airline deaths resulting from middle-eastern terrorists. I would assume, therefore, that those of you who who won't fly with arabs, also won't fly unless you give the plane an inspection beforehand?
shanna: The actual count (I believe) is 250 acts against Middle-Easterners and 1 (?) dead and some 6000 acts against US citizens and residents with some 6000 dead. Dont distort the truth with statistical recalculation! Does the magnitude count for nothing? There you go again... I have never proposed denying anyone their rights. Why do people keep putting words in my mouth? I know it's easier to "win" the argument when you put things you wish I'd said in my mouth, but it is patently dishonest. Please stop. I am quite certain that I have only ever said that I understand the fear that people here feel about people of Middle-Eastern descent. I have stated in other threads that I have no personal fear. I live off the beaten path. How do you get off KNOWING what my fear is? Psychotic paranoia--- really! Don't take yourself so seriously. First you put words in my mouth, now you read my mind! My point about your travel to Afghanistan is to indicate that our response here in America is comparably VERY CIVILIZED. Yes, there have been some ugly incidents but they pale to the OBLITERATION you would face were you an American minority in Afghanistan and we had devastated them with such an act of terrorism. Yes, I thought your example of 3 Arabs throwing a planeful of Americans off an airliner because they were fearful of "hate crimes" against them in mid-air was PATENTLY RIDICULOUS. That's why I tried to ignore it....
haven: I never said you made a racist statement. I said you were afraid because of the terroristic acts. Terrorism has a reach and a scale that random and isolated acts of apolitical violence don't. That is why you you were afraid after the 11th. I think it is "reasonable" to resent having to write a 5-page paper; it is very hard work. I think it is "understandable" that you will do it because you want to get into law school. Don't those uses work just as well? People who are newly cautious about Middle-Easterners are not racists. People who kill them probably are. What would you do without your syllogisms?! You construct them to your own satisfaction (not using my words) and then you ask me to debunk them. No thanks. I say you validated my point because you were concerned for your safety after the 11th. You say I'm a "poor fool" because after all you never made any racist comments. WHAT IN THE HELL DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING??? Syllogize that baby!
Let's throw a stick in the spokes for a second...... First off, I have my opinion of these events and actually witnessed something of the like travelling to Fresno yesterday from Dallas via American Airlines. But I will save that for later. OK, shanna, richrocket, haven, et al..... You are getting ready to board a plane and notice 4-5 arab looking gentleman also boarding or already on the flight. How do you feel? Are you scared? Are you content in the fact? Are you observing their behavior? Are you minding your own business because you feel safe? They are fidgeting and nervous. Do you think it suspicious, or do you think they are nervous because they fear for their own safety? Also, say you hear on the news that a group of Muslims were asked to be thrown off a plane by Americans in light of the WTC attacks, but that request was denied, and the plane took off with those Muslims on it. But that flight did end up being hijacked and many died. Then what is going through your mind? Do you think that the denial of the request for those men to be removed from the flight was still a good decision? Again, I reserve my opinion for later on this.....but it is a hard predicament to be in given the fear thrust into our lives. By the same token, you want the morals and ideals of this country to remain intact even through this.
Damn straight it's a hard predicament. In the scenario that you described, I would not fly with those gentlemen. I would leave the airplane of my own accord. Of course, I would like to be able to continue my travels, but there is nowhere that I want to go so bad that I will take an undue risk of life-- especially if my wife and kids are traveling with me. If somehow these "arab looking gentlemen" were removed from the aircraft, I don't know if I would continue my travels. Maybe. Even probably, but hell I'm not sure. I do think I would feel safer because the likelihood of suicide bombers on that plane had just been reduced dramatically-- but maybe not to zero.
Richrocket, What about the 2nd half of my "situation?" When travelling to Fresno on Saturday evening, I de-boarded the plane and went to catch my shuttle bus, tired after a 3.5 hours on a flight. I sat outside waiting and several Arab gentleman were wandering around. I assumed two of them were cab drivers, as they were standing by cabs, waiting. There were at least three others, and they were walking the sidewalk asking if anyone wanted a cab. Well, all of the sudden a police officer and a security guard walk up, and they gather up all the Arab gentleman in a group in the street. I thought it odd, but decided to listen and see what the deal was. I never did hear the police officer say anything (he was talking quietly) except for asking each one, "WHY ARE YOU HERE?" I must admit, I felt bad for these guys. I mean, they were just trying to drum up business in a slow period at the airport. As it turns out, all worked for different cab companies. But anyone else that was wandering around was not asked a thing....only the Arab men.
No big deal HOOP-T, I mean, didn't you see all the cops harassing the white people who were trying to rent a moving van after Oklahoma City?
Hmmm, I can't quite recall that happening. I guess I was not changing residences during that time and did not require a Ryder truck.
richrocket: Ahh... I completely missed the best argument for my case in my last post. My apologies. The difference: I was afraid of terrorism. The people on that plane were afraid of Arabs because the might be terrorists. Reasonable... understandable... I don't agree definitionally, but I will admit they're often used interchangeably. And if you were doing so, I understand.
The bottom line is poeple of all races and colors are scared. These "slepers" as they are called live among us and seem like a normal person. They socialize and to some extent get americanized, then someday go out and kill when they are instructed. I don't know how to make everyone less fearful, except by tightening security. Ensuring that NOONE gets a weapon on board, andf to the same extent make sure the caterers and cleaning crews don't leave any weapons on board either. Someone mentioned knowing karate or martial arts, but my response is the terrorists now know Americans will fight in these situations. What that means is they know they may not ever be able to hijack a plane, but they may only want to detonate a bomb instead of taking over a plane. At this point noone knows which stranger is a good guy or a bad guy, so right or wrong people are afraid and targeting those who look like the terrorists. No it isn't right but people are scared.
haven: I hope you understand that I was not criticizing you for being afraid of terrorism. If I didn't live away from even a mildly populated area or if I traveled by air a lot, I might be more afraid as well. If we are afraid of terrorism, then we are de facto afraid of terrorists. Some 19 of the 280-some passengers on those ill fated flights were Middle-Easterners; they WERE the terrorists. That fact alone is enough to make anyone (even a naturalized and loyal US citizen who is from the Middle East and is Muslim) jumpy were they to see a small sampling of Middle-Easterners on board their plane. To ask air travelers to blindly overlook that reality when it may be their life at stake is asking too much. I even heard Juan Williams agree with that: miracle of miracles! NO ONE REALLY CAN EVEN OFFER A GOOD SOLUTION. Granted that makes it bumpy for some of our citizens or visitors but people cannot be expected to cast a blind eye toward their own safety. Hoop-T: It is a sad day when innocent people are broadly viewed with suspicion-- but it's not criminal or typically even abusive. Can anyone really say that they wouldn't be suspicious of that group? Isn't one of the individuals on the list of suspects a cab driver from Boston? I got stopped at the airport on Monday the 18th for leaving my car unattended by 50 feet. If I hadn't been "caught" coming out of the baggage area carrying two suitcases and followed by my father-in-law I may have been sequestered for questioning as well.
