Come on, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm not talking about the criminals here. shanna posted in another thread about how 50% of Americans supported giving special IDs to Arabs. What I'm saying is that the country is filled with ignorant people, not necessarily hateful people (although there's plenty of those, too). That is being highlighted right now.
Racism is a VERY complex social issue. It isn't as simple as hate or love, unfortunately. I was raised in a family of bigots. I used to use the n word like it was going out of style. I called gay people "fags" and used just about every racial slur in the book. As I got older, I began to shed those pre-conceived ideas about other races primarily because I got to be friends with so many of other ethnicities. The fact is that those feelings I had as a child, as little as I understood them or even knew what to believe at the time, are still there somewhere. I don't want them or like them but they exist. I feel them every time I'm in a parking lot at night and a group of young Hispanic kids are out there too. I think about it when a black man approaches me on the street downtown. It sucks, but I don't want to deny that it exists. That only buries it deeper. I want to root it out and rid myself of it, but it takes time. DREAMer: I think you are correct that there are racial undertones in society but I don't think it is just about race. It is mostly about being different. In the 50's, there was reefer madness. Anyone even remotely resembling a beatnik was scorned and even arrested. Our culture, like most, has a tendency to fear change and differences. We cling to the things that make us feel most comfortable. This instance is no different. People want to feel safe and they feel the most safe in the company of people and things that they recognize and comfortable and non-threatening. If anything, this incident provides us a terrific opportunity to examine the feelings we do have about race and religion and try to confront them face forward. If we have those feelings, let's find out now and figure out what to do with them. Better to face them and learn from them than just bury them and feel ashamed.
I dont care what anyone says I would never get on a plane ever again with 3 or 4 middle eastern people aboard.Call me a racist if you want to but I consider my life more important than offending anyone or hurting anyone's feelings.The next time I board a plane if I see 2 or more middle eastern people sitting together I will demand they be kicked off the plane and if it doesnt happen I will walk.
After the Oklahoma City Bombing, did you demand that all white people were kicked out of any federal buildings you entered? And if not, why not?
Bad argument. It would be reasonable to be wary/suspicious if a significant percentage of Middle Easterners were terrorists. Extrapolate the logic of your argument: Some white people are murderers. A white person is near me. Therefore, I should be suspicious. Or how about a historical example? Some Japanese-Americans might be traitors. There are Japanese-Americans are in our midst Therefore, we should put them in concentration camps to be safe. Do you think that was a good decision? Should we do the same thing with Arab-Americans, now? By your logic, doing so would be reasonable. If you want to, like thefreak, make the case that it's more understandable, I might concede the point.
No puedlfor I have done what other smart people have done.I have not to this day set foot in a federal building since the Oklahoma City bombing.
If you think things are bad now, what happens if another hijacking takes place resulting in more deaths? Lets hope the few unforunate events that have taken place over the past week are the last!
haven,when 4 groups of middle eastern people crash 4 planes in one day I find it to be a significant number of terrorists.There is a large number of middle eastern terrorists here in the U.S. and other parts of the world like Europe,Australia,South and Central America.That number could be as high as 100,000 for all we know.
haven: Bad argument. It would be reasonable to be wary/suspicious if a significant percentage of Middle Easterners were terrorists. Reply: High percentage or not, these ME terrorists have just pulled off the single largest act of terrorism in world history. You can go with the percentages if you want to, but you can't make others.... even with your "logic." haven: Extrapolate the logic of your argument: Some white people are murderers. A white person is near me. Therefore, I should be suspicious. Or how about a historical example? Some Japanese-Americans might be traitors. There are Japanese-Americans are in our midst Therefore, we should put them in concentration camps to be safe. Do you think that was a good decision? Should we do the same thing with Arab-Americans, now? By your logic, doing so would be reasonable. Reply: Problems with your two examples. The one about simple murderers is trivial in comparison to the single largest act of terrorism in world history and the second one about the Japanese-Americans involves a solution that I have neither suggested or condoned. That is bad misrepresentation. haven: If you want to, like thefreak, make the case that it's more understandable, I might concede the point. Reply: My point is plainly understandable if you would just leave it alone. The confusion comes when you extrapolate it to places that I never took it or intended to take it. All I said was that people's fears are understandable. The isolation of an event like getting on a plane where you would have NO CHANCE to survive is very different from being afraid to enter every building much less being afraid of every "white person" as you put it. Fear of those people or places is diluted by sheer volume. Nowdays, you get on a plane with a terrorist from the Middle East and, fair to say, you are certainly dead. You don't have to concede anything. I'm just furthering a discussion here. People's fear is easily justifiable; that is all I've said. Their actions in response to that fear may not be. Just because I understand oregondude's concern doesn't mean that I support his actions, but neither am I an armchair critic.
RM95: a handful or horrific events (i.e. James Byrd) does not become a "murderous rampage." Or does it in your opinion?
No. Arguments don't just exist in content. There's also a symbolic structure underriding any logical inference. I'm merely taking your logical symbols, filling them with different content, and showing you the necessary congruence. It is possible to argue that content is all that matters, but that's equivalent to post-modern nihilism, imo... and I don't think either of us want to go there. So all I have to do is demonstrate that the logical inference is the same.
Only you would parse a difference between "reasonable" and "understandable!" And you dare to call that backlapsing. Jiminy Cricket! You may think my counter-argument about the triviality of isolated murders vs. catastrophic terrorism is "naive," but 10 days ago you wrote that you were AFRAID to be in Boston. Let me ask you when did you stop being afraid of being murdered or were you ever afraid of being murdered in Boston? Yet this single act of terrorism reduced YOU to being fearful and sleepless as I recall. Explain that. I won't take the time to look up the threads, but I recall them clearly. Your actual life reflected a huge distinction so I don't think it is fair and maybe even intellectually "dishonest" here to claim invalidation of my argument when your own responses in REAL LIFE TOTALLY VALIDATED WHAT I AM SAYING. haven: "Perhaps internment is a step removed from suspicious, but it's the same sentiment." RR: What a leap! You made it not me but you try to impale me on it. May I have mustard with those words please! I definitely don't want to go to post-moder nihilism ! It sounds worse than going to the dentist. Your turn....
Rich, I believe Boston is #2 on the list of cities that would be targeted by terrorists, behind New York. Maybe that had something to do with his concern, huh?
If you came across a pit of snakes along the way, would you stick your hand in or for that matter jump in? Bleeding hearts make me sick.
TPL: no doubt it did, but that doesn't justify trying to invalidate a huge distinction between random, isolated murder (of which he is apparently not afraid) and catastrophic terrorism (of which he and many are now afraid). Anyone has a right to be afraid now and to be more prudent than ever. I'm not criticizing anyone for being afraid. I AM criticizing what I see as an inconsistency in haven's arguments.
With the risk of repeating myself, I think what happened on the airplanes is inexcusable. I definitely understand why people would be afraid - it''s been a frightening two weeks. But part of overcoming the tragedy is not allowing our fear to lead us to act irrationally. And when we cave in to our worst impulses, whether they are understandable or not, we are abandoning our American principles at a time when we most need to adhere to them. I can understand the pilot being jumpy. But I cannot tolerate the blatant bigotry of his actions. In the majority of murders, the murderer and victim are usually family members. Does that mean the pilot should treat family like a den of killers? I don't think so. And even if he were to, the pilot was still more likely to die driving to the airport than from a terrorist attack.
Timing, TheFreak, and RichRocket: If you're annoyed listening to people post reasons why middle-easterners' hatred is understandable, maybe you can understand why I'm annoyed that you bother to show why kicking guys off a plane because of their skin color is understandable. Still, we've come a long way- back in WWII, we were putting Japanese-Americans in concentration camps. The cross-faith ceremony we had today in Yankee stadium, with the singing of the Sikh prayers and the Muslim call to prayer was amazing. BTW- I think it's fascinating how in one black day terrorists discovered an incredible new weapon, and now it may never succeed again. You know that the next time a plane is hijacked, most able-bodies guys on there would rather rush the mother****ers than sit around like hostages strapped to a missle. I know I would.
