What if you paid more attention to what other people had already posted THROUGHOUT the thread, not just a particular statement you wanted to attack. What if you had more patience to understand what a lengthy conversation was about before you responded. What if you didn't take things out of context. What if you didn't assume what you thought I didn't know already. But seriously, I was merely responding to adeelsiddique who said there was no need for American Muslims or any Muslims to apologize for something they didn't do, of which I respectfully disagreed and had laid out my reasons. During our CONVERSATION back and forth, I responded by saying it wouldn't hurt if more Muslims would reach out with the rest of the communities against terrorism, and that wasn't exactly me saying not enough American Muslims against terrorism. If you have a 10,000 Muslims marching against terrorism, what's wrong with 10,000 more. It's totally alright if someone wanted to protest against injustice toward Palestinians, but I found it quite hypocritical when his or her enthusiasm against Palestinian suicide bombings on innocent women and children was feeble at best, and I HAVE seen that. I also pointed out that there were some American Muslims who were anti-West and very much skeptical of what actually happened in the aftermath shortly after 9/11. For those who expressed that kind of cynicism and denial on who did what at the time, and some still do, they certainly owe the 3000 deads and their families an apology. For those who has marched, or expressed anger against terrorism in any parts of the world, including Israel, their apology to me is a gesture of regret, and a feeling of shame of their Muslim brothers who have commited atrocities repeatedly in the name of their Creator. I live in a big city. I have seen many protests from all sides, including Muslims, Jews, gays, whoever, whatever. As a matter of fact, there is even a Muslim mosque just 3 blocks from my house.
I did read the conversation, and I didn't necessarily get the feeling that people (including you) know, acknowledge, or believe the large amount of outreach that has been attempted since 9/11/2001. Thanks for clarifying the matter. I'm really relieved to hear differently. The part you mention about Muslims reaching out with their communities is worth a little detail. At my mosque, I know that there was a lot of calls to reach out by doing more within the larger community as citizens, not as Muslims. In other words, attempting to reiterate that we're neighbors, not this monolithic group that has to be synchronized in action and separate from the population.
I'm just curious. How many here think that the Irish comunity here in America should apologize to the British for giving so much money to the IRA and Sinn Fein? This whole thread shows how easily it is to be hypocritical about the idea of collective guilt. Its easy to demand from other groups while hard to expect from your own.
The Western world struggles with the concept of collective guilt. When we look at the scriptures of all eastern religions you see the concept of collective guilt or collective sin big time. In the Western world we have concepts that really aren't that old...enlightenment type ideas...about individuals...the rights of individuals. And the idea of being convicted for the sins or crimes of the community offends us. I don't think either side is 100% right or wrong.
I'd say more like "spiritual separation from God which needs renewal" and "certain" sin not collective sin.
not entirely...but it's certainly a part of it. sin is, all at once, collective and individual. in the west, we tend to emphasize our individual sin...in the east, they're more sensitive to collective sin. i think the east probably is better balanced on that.
Would you say Judaism is based on collective sin? I thought Christianity was the only religion which states that Adam and Eve's original sin is cast down to all humans. Is that not true? If that's the case, then Islam also believes in the Adam and Eve story and would qualify, too...
i think you can believe in collective guilt and sin and not necessarily believe in the concept of original sin. yes...judaism, as best i understand it, has the concept of community sin...read leviticus...read the ceremonies for the Day of Atonement, where the collective sin of the entire Hebrew nation would be cast upon a goat and then driven out of town by a Gentile. the idea that, "yes, i've offended God...but WE'VE also offended God" is a concept that I think permeates Christianity, Judaism and Islam, in some form or another.
Are you sorry that it happened? Are you sorry that the clerical/political leadership in the muslim world built the environment for it to happen in? I know that saying that your life sucks because of the actions of other people and races is the easiest cop-out in the world and one of the oldest ones in the book...but doing so in a global society can clearly have a larger impact than it used to. The dogma being preached by some clerics (obviously I don't know what proportion of the clerics) is very similar to what German politicians said about their economy sucking because of the punitive nature of the treaties at the end of WW1. Does this frighten you? 'Cause it scares the heck out of me.
again, i thnk i clarified that its ok to apologize for not condemning, or doing enough to stop terrorism, or even "creating an environment" but apologizing for 9-11... you have to stop somewhere. why dont these muslims just apologize for every murder, every theft, every robbery commited by a muslim.
