Musicians/Bands who's first release was by far and away their best

Enjoy it while it lasts!

 

Um, I'm not sure where you got that from. Neither of us are music critics in either a professional *or* a hobbyist way. We both listen to a lot of music, and we both talk a lot, but that's about the extent of it. However, your characterisation of us as critics is obviously a huge insult within your particular mindset, so I suppose I should be duly infuriated. Whatever.

Your conception that all art *is* subjective and created solely as personal expression is what *I* find rigid and 'black and white'. Surely, as Elvis says, there *are* aesthetic criteria in art? Surely all art is in response to other art? Surely, therefore, we can judge that art within various contexts and using various criteria? I really thought our arguments were worth more serious consideration than 'all you've done is defend critics'. Good critics can help us to understand and appreciate art. I think that's important.

Again, you're really projecting here. For example, I've never called RM95 an idiot for liking DMB (although I'll happily make jokes about that until the cows come home ). In fact, I've said all along the line that you can like all sorts of things that I don't like and I won't give a crap, but it doesn't mean that the things you or I *like* the most are necessarily the highest expression of their art. It's like my Costello/Dylan comparison. Dylan is probably a greater artist, and I can accept that - but I still like Costello more. And I obviously don't think I'm an idiot. Well, not all the time.

Great. So first of all you call *us* critics, then spend a large portion of your post insulting critics at large. Nice way to get personal without actually naming names. So you think we're smug, elitist, sh*tty and condescending, as well as incapable of creativity? Very pleasant, Jeff, very pleasant. Luckily, since I'm not actually a critic and I don't believe what you said about them, I'm not cursing you from my keyboard or anything.

Come on, dude. Let's talk about something other than music, because you clearly get your knickers in a huge twist about it. This is, like, the third time in a row that you've jumped on me over some musical issue about which we disagree, and I've never implied anything that insulting about you. I'm sure you're a stellar bassist and it's probably true that I have no conception of what it really *means* to be an artist. I suck. Feel better?

 

Stupid crap edited out. I don't want to argue about personal ****. Not worth it.

Getting back to music, this quote from you, dimsie, sums it all up for me:

<i>What's the point of having any art at all - literary, visual, or musical - if it can't be generally judged in some way?</i>

How about for enjoyment? How about for enlightenment? How about because it is fun? Maybe, judging art isn't as important as enjoying it. If Britney Spears brings a little joy into this world for someone, who are we to tell them they are stupid for listening?

 

They may enjoy it but they wouldn't be very enlightened

You can read what all the critics say or what other people say about an artist, in the end it all boils down to how you feel about the art, not what someone tells you you should feel.

 

LOL! No doubt!

 

Edit it all you like, Jeff, but (10 points for anyone who can name the artist and song) 'all your compliments and your cutting remarks/are captured here in my quotation marks':

Reading critics, liking good critics, and occasionally talking about music actually *makes* me a critic? Awesome! Where's my paycheck and publishing deal, man?

Oh, I'm not shocked or insulted that you think I'm 'sh!tty and condescending'. I personally don't think I am, but of course I *would* say that, wouldn't I? But I much prefer someone to say right out loud that they have a problem with me, as you just did, than obliquely imply that I'm a b**** as you did in your previous posts. All *I* said was that I never said anything that nasty about you during any of our debates. If you want us *both* to start calling spades spades, that's absolutely fine with me: for someone with a reputation for being oh-so-nice, you don't hesitate to pull punches when you feel it's required. Again, that's cool with me. Whatever.

'Bloodyminded' means 'bullheaded', not idiotic. Just in case this is a cultural vocabulary thing.

Oh, I kinda like some Britney songs, in parts. But I know they're crap. And I *love* the latest Kylie album! See, Jeff, that's the thing about this whole argument: I enjoy a whole lot of objectively horrible music and TV and books. But I'm not fooling myself into thinking they're great art, 'because all art is subjective, and my thoughts about them are the only things that matter'. They're not. That's all I'm saying.

 

Reminds me of Seinfeld. An argument about nothing.

 

"All art is quite useless."

 

And the guy who said that was an artist.

 

DMB rocks!



I completely agree with Jeff/Hydra here. If the Beatles are your favorite act, then they are the best to you. Nothing more(Though they are recognized by most as the greatest band ever). I consider myself a pretty big Beatles fan, but I only call them the greatest band ever casually. If I were ever in a large musical debate(I'm probably a little underqualified to be in one, anyway), I would never, ever call them the best band ever. It's just much too...personal(For the lack of a better word).

I'm a big fan of the singer-songwriter genre(Dylan, Springsteen...Love 'em)...I think you called him a singer-songwriter earlier. But, I've never really understood all the fuss about Elvis Costello(Much like you may not understand all the fuss about DMB). I haven't heard much, but from the sounds of it, it is average. Average voice, average guitar, average lyrics. For as much critical acclaim as he receives, I expected more.

Do you see what I'm talking about now? Everyone has their own personal tastes...I think Elvis sucks...therefore Elvis sucks to me.

Now, DMB, flat out, just doesn't suck.

 

Two things:

a) If you think Elvis Costello writes 'average' lyrics, what do you think are extraordinary ones? I agree about the average guitar, though. He's not exactly Yngwie Malmsteen.

b) It's not like I don't understand your point (or Jeff's, or Hydra's, or even Freak's). I just fundamentally *disagree* with your point. That's all.

 

Again, I haven't ever heard much of Elvis Costello. but, good songwriters? Many of my choices will sound obvious, but I can't help that. Why settle for less when more is available? Anyway, here I go...

Bob Dylan(My favorite solo artist, ever)
Lennon-McCartney/McCartney-Lennon(Whatever the court decided)
Paul Simon(Along with Garfunkel's amazing voice, produced some classics)
Bruce Springsteen(One of the only artists in recent times to put so much emotion into mainstream-rock hit songs)
Dave Matthews(Lyrics flow so well with the music, it's uncanny)
George Harrison(Had quite a few moments, it's a shame he wasn't able to write more, IMO)

Honorable mentions: Jakob Dylan(Very underrated songwriter, I really liked "Bringing Down the Horse."), Van Morisson, Sting, Bob Marley, Eric Clapton, and Billy Joel.

 

Most of your choices I agree with. If you like so many of those, I really suggest you give Costello another listen: for extremely clever wordplay, ongoing symbolism, and stuff chock full of hooks, try This Year's Model, Armed Forces and Get Happy!!, which were all recorded at the height of his lyrical powers. He's not consistently compared to Dylan because all critics are r****ded: he really *is* an amazing lyricist.

 

It is hard to believe nobody has mentioned Snoop Doggy Dogg's "Doggystyle". This is by far his best album of all time and in agreeing with the thread's name it is his FIRST album. Every other album he has done since then is garbage especially the ones he had with No Limit Records.

Again, nobody has mentioned Nas "Illmatic", This is a hip-hop classic. If you ask anybody who knows anything about rap music or the hip-hop culture they will tell you this is a must own for any rap album collection. This was also his very FIRST album.

 

How about The Chronic then. Dre hasn't come anywhere close to that amazing album.

 

"Everyday I Write The Book," Elvis Costello

 

10 points! Which can be cashed in, um, nowhere.