I'm not saying that "45 wins has nothing to do with Francis." I'm more talking about us hitting a limit with SF no matter how much talent his has around him (on a team scale). The catch-22 is that the good things that Francis brings (better than most other PG can do) is his great speed, quickness, and leaping ability. Right? But when you get those good things, you also get ISO ball, lack of timing/passing, sloppy plays and generally bad team play. So, sure, he can brings some wins. But he also causes the losses.
pgabriel: "Every quality big man in the West put up equal or better numbers than Yao." That has to be one of the more narrow-minded statements you have made in this thread yet. While his NUMBERS were not eye-popping, they were still easily the second-best in the league for any center not named O'neal. Go take a survey of NBA GM's, and ask who the second-best TRUE CENTER in the league is... I guarantee you the consensus will be Yao Ming. Then ask what position is most closely associated with winning championships in this league. I guarantee you they will say center, not PG. Don't believe me...I'd say the top 3 PG's in the league over the last 10 years have been Stockton, Payton, and Kidd, in any order...combined rings?...ZERO! Now, top 3 centers in the league over the same time period? Hakeem, Shaq, and DRobinson...combined rings?...SEVEN! Seven to nothing...are you kidding me? Clearly the center position is more important to a championship team than the PG...But that's not even the real argument here. Anyone who watches basketball could tell you that. I don't even think you're stupid enough to dispute the importance of the C over the PG. Back to the real argument: Then ask who the successor to Shaq is as THE next dominant Center in the league... Again, the consensus will be Yao. To even suggest that Yao is 'nothing special' just shows how little you actually know about basketball. Yao, still only 23, is the only big man in the league who has ever stood up to Shaq and played him to a near standstill since Hakeem retired. To say that he is just another pedestrian big man makes me question whether or not you should be allowed to make decisions for yourself (for your own safety). I mean, if you see Yao as just another average big man, what other skewed perceptions are you harboring? Does the Red light mean GO in your world? Does sticking a fork in a toaster ever seem like a GOOD idea to you? Yao is the reason we made the playoffs last year, not Francis...How do I know this? Because, as you said, even when Steve was carrying this team in the 2000 and 2001 seasons, we weren't good enough. Plain and simple. You even said that "the team probably maximized its potential in 00-01" with Steve and no Yao, right? So then clearly, the improvement in the team from then to now had to come from somewhere else, right? I mean, if Steve had his best individual years during this time, and he had taken it as far as he could alone, then Yao must be the factor that pushed us into the playoffs, right? Not to mention the fact that YAO LED THE TEAM IN SCORING IN ITS ONLY PLAYOFF APPEARANCE UNDER FRANCIS' LEAD! Not Francis...Yao baby. So if Yao's numbers were only average last year, and they were still better than Steve's, does that mean Francis was BELOW-AVERAGE last year? Please explain how a below-average player (as measured head up against Yao) managed to LEAD a playoff team? When Francis was at his individual worst (this year), we, as a team, accomplished more than we ever did in Francis' heyday. That should tell you all you need to know...when Francis was at his individual best, we were just plain mediocre. Now, pgabriel, you make the call... How can the Rockets make thier only playoff appearance in the same year that Francis, individually, performs at his worst? Was it because of Francis, or in spite of him? I think we all know the answer to that question...
To add to it, wasn't Francis really wanted to stay with the Rockets? I thought he was trying very hard to adapt JVG ball, but just wasn't successful. How many of you here actually know TMAC personally to make the statement that he will adapt JVG ball? Let's just wait for his action on the court instead of buying his word.
From your mouth to Gods ears, just don't think a title is going to happen ala the Pistons. The Pistons had what the Rox don't, depth across the board. I agree with Matt Goukas that Rox have a lot to prove and need help at at key positions. CD needs to start dealing now, the future is now before Yao's contract expires and the team is at risk to losing him to free agency ala Kenyon Martin, Carlos Boozer. All this talk about players and coaches but I tell you what, I think Joe Dumars should get MVP on that team (Detroit), can we trade CD for Joe Dumars and the TE.
PGabriel: Not going to argue with you about Yao. But you do need to realize the absurdity of one of your statements, since you're trying to accuse of others of poor argument. In claiming that every "quality" big man had better #'s than Yao, you're creating an arbitrary class with no real standard. You seem to define any "quality big man" as anyone who plays the 4 or 5 with better #'s than Yao. Compare Yao to the rest of the 4s and 5s in the league. If he ranks high, then he's probably "quality." But don't just compare him to your imaginary, contrived class. Such an argument fails to persuade anybody with half a brain and reflects poorly on you.
Dude, I don't know what I ever did to you but you need to chill. As far as an imaginary big man, all you have to do is look at teams that made the playoffs in the West and see what their post players did and compare the stats to Yao's. Its not rocket science and the only absurdity is your making this out to be a difficult task. Yao 17 and 9 Shaq 21 and 11 Duncan 22 and 12 Nowitzki 21 and 8 Pau 17 and 7 Miller 14 and 10, and this doesn't include Webber Garnett 24 and 13 That's 6 quality big men from the teams that finished ahead of the Rockets in the Western Conference this year so you don't have to imagine. Yao's numbers blows none of those others guys' away. As a matter of fact, his numbers are blown away by three of those players. Another, Nowitzi's is better, and another one, Pau's is comparable. So again, to act like Yao had some spectacular season that should have yielded this team 50 wins is the absurdity. And lets not even talk about 02-03's season numbers.
Francis was the focus of the offense in 00-01 without another all-star and the team won 45 games. This past season, Yao was the focus of the offense and had the benefit of playing with another all-star and the team still won 45 games. How does that mean Yao got more out of the team than Francis. That's just stupid. It would seem to me he got less out of more. And of course I said, that team maximized its potential, they had no other all-stars.
I think the point your missing is that 45 wins is all the Rockets were ever going to get out of a team with Steve Francis as the starting point guard. Most on this board seem to agree, Rockets management (who get paid big bucks to analyze this sort of thing) seem to agree, and even you seem to agree, although you won't admit it. Steve won 45 by himself in 2001...Steve won 45 again in 2004...Do we see a pattern? The difference is, this year 45 games were enough to get into the playoffs, and this year Yao was the best player on this team, not Steve. Now, the Magic fans get to see if Steve can win 45 games... I BELIEVE HE CAN DO IT...(he just needs a little motivation, so please, everyone, help him out) C'mon, all together now...Steve, you can do it!
It is one thing to post a "r****ded" opinion but it is another to come up with inaccurate jibberish. For goodness' sake Tmac, Lue and Howard were starters for the 2003/2004 Orlando Magic team. At least get that one right. In essence..... Howard > Cato Tmac > Francis+Mobley Lue and q-factor Gaines are solid extra additions. We arradicated 3 misfits (though serviceable) for 1 super super star, 2 solid starters and one potentially solid PG/SG.
pgabriel and Milos, The debate regarding Yao's contribution in his rookie and last year is a moot point. It wasn't Yao's team, yet! Although, it was moving that way. Most can SEE that Yao will get better and better each year. So, forget about the debate regarding how much (or how little; pgabriel's view point) Yao helped the team. This debate about Yao's 2nd year contributions compared to a 5th year veteran PG is silly! It shouldn't even be happening. We know that Yao will get better and that Francis has reached his limit. So, it doesn't matter. Yao will get better. All you have to do is look at Yao's talent and ability to improve. He will achieve better than his first two years. This thread has broken up into three themes of thought. One is that Yao didn't really help Francis very much (pgabriel thinks this). Two, that Francis wasn't getting enough credit for past success of this team (2000-2001/and the Yao years). Third, that McGrady will experience the same type of problems that Francis did under JVG. I've already gone over this, but let me address them again... I've already talked about Yao's contributions (take them or leave them, pgabriel. Yao's here to stay) ....What about Francis's contributions? Francis does help. But he also hurts this team (by continuing to make rookie mistakes in his 5th year). He can not make his teammates better as PG. This is the role that he was hired to do and he failed. Plain and simple. This not only is about the role and responsibility of the POINT GUARD but also the responsibility of the LEADER. He failed on BOTH FRONTS! As far the idea that McGrady will experience the SAME type of problems that Francis and JVG had, this is just ludicrous. One, McGrady will be used completely differently and his responsibilities will be different. He'll be the SHOOTING GUARD, not the PG. He'll also be asked to score, something that McGrady is great at. McGrady has also shown that he's NOT an incompetent player (unlike Francis). Thus, we'll enjoy less turnovers. As far as I'm concerned, we are on the right track. All we need now is just to find the right type of role players to fill certain spots. But we already have our core stars in place. And they will be our leaders of this team for a long time.
While it was obvious the team was moving towards a Yao focused offense this past season, it was still not nearly as Yao centered as the team was Francis centered in 00-01. Consider that last season, a season when "Yao was the focus", Francis averaged 14.1 field goals per game and averaged 3.7 turnovers per game. Yao had 11.2 FG per game and 2.3 turnovers. True, Yao played less minutes, but to most people that watched the games it was still apparent that Steve would inexplicably revert to the old ISO, do-it-all-yourself offense. I agree that it is folly to assume that McGrady won't have any negative impact on this team. Every player brings the good and bad. There have been stretches in the past where I absolutely HATED T-Mac for his attitude. Even before the disastrous 2003 season (which many people seem to want to give him a free pass for because of the horrible situation). Remember the incident with Bobby Jackson and him throwing the ball in his face at the end of the game? Things like that are still possible (although not as probable...he seems to be maturing somewhat...albeit slowly). The bottom line is he plays more under control than Francis, is a better scorer, better passer, taller, longer, more capable of carrying a team and just so happens to have been traded in a deal involving Francis. That is going to result in a lot of player comparisons. That doesn't mean we hate Francis because we think he is less of a player.
