pgabriel, The difference is, when these 'problems' arise with Tmac, they will be easier to stomach. Which team has led the NBA in these type of 'problems' the last five or six years? Answer: The Lakers. And why didn't that team break up sooner, despite all these 'problems'? Answer: Any team with true CHAMPIONSHIP aspirations is worth the trouble to babysit. This team, with Francis as its leader, had maxed out as a decent playoff team. Thus, when he creates 'problems', the solution is to trade your headache for the headache of another team. This isn't my opinion either...this is clearly what Rockets management had assessed as well. The difference is, Tmac is a much more talented headache...therefore, his 'problems' are outweighed by his performance. As long as McGrady produces on the court what Steve could not, I don't think anyone here will be complaining when any of his 'problems' arise...much like no one complained about Shaq or Kobe's 'problems' while they were winning championships. And if you don't agree with me about Steve being a less-valuable problem than McGrady...well, take it up with Les, CD, and JVG, because they obviously agree with me.
Say what you want about Stevie, but it was pretty apparent from Yao and JVG's comments that SF bought into JVG's style. If JVG can convince SF, I'm sure as heck gonna give him the benefit of the doubt with TMac also
So a 21 game winning problem in the East is more valuable than a 45 game winning problem in the West. Besides that false logic, that isn't the point of the article. We hope T-Mac isn't a problem. If he isn't a problem then we shouldn't have anything to worry about. If he does have problems with the coach or other teamates or both, then we should worry. All I'm saying is the jury is still out until the season starts. The fact is T-Mac has had problems with two different situations he's been in. That should be a concern regardless of his talent. If it works out, of course this will be a better team. But I don't think we should just assume it should.
Francis didn't win 45 games by himself, just as Tmac didn't lose 61 by himself. Give Tmac a team with Cat, Yao, Cato, MoT and JJ in the east last year and your looking at homecourt in the first round with a possible Finals appearance. Give Francis the team Tmac was on last year in the east and they would be LUCKY to win 21 games. Remember, just as Tmac did last year, Steve already led us to a #1 overall pick - Yao. So, obviously neither is incapable of bottoming out a franchise. My point was, when McGrady pulls any **** like that (skipping flights to go to superbowls, etc...), as long as he is winning, no one will care, much like no one cared about the Lakers crap when they were winning. I'm assuming nothing...except that IF he is producing on the court, it will offset the inevitable baggage that we will have to deal with as a part of the 'Tmac' package. If he isn't winning, we will have another Francis situation, but I'll take my chances with Tmac, as would most everyone else in Houston, Pro Basketball, and pretty much the entire planet's population whose last name isn't Francis. BTW, is YOUR last name FRANCIS?
Uh, nope, wrong. You can't be a top 5 player by just being capable of scoring. T-mac can score better than Francis, more importantly, can score more effeciently. Second, T-mac can rebound just as much as Francis, as many assists but with a better assist/to ratio, which is a great bonus, considering he's a shooting gaurd. Lastly, he can play great defense, he's capable of it, with blocking shots as a bonus and don't be surprised to see excellent defense from him under JVG next season. In conclusion, all those things are ignored, because T-mac is an overall balanced, and diverse top 5 player that can play three positions. Not to mention, T-mac= 25, Steve=27, only 2yr difference. But while, Steve's talents have shown to be greatly one sided with little to no improvement over his career, T-mac's talents show as great as he already is, he still has room for improvement. Which is spooky, but true. Another small difference to point out, unlike Steve, T-mac has said fro the get go, that he'll heed to JVG's leadership and will have no problem with it whatseover. As we all know, Steve at first was hesitant and then after a while TRIED to adapt and failed miserably. As much as all of this has been repeated, seems it'll never stop from being so, since people keep repeating nonsense. I really don't care if the "SOF" and the Steve "haters" keep going back and forth in their babbling battles. But, please, don't say such ignorant remarks involving T-mac, slighting his factual talent to make him seem like a small improvement over a player like Steve Francis. Keep the ignorance and biased views of Steve Francis to eachother, SOF and Steve haters, don't involve other players in it.
you were wrong, but at least seeming reasonable about it until you made this stupid comment. the argument in this thread is not whether steve is better than tmac. that isn't even an argument. tmac is a top 5 talent, possibly higher depending on who you ask. at his best 2 years ago, francis was top 15, and last year maybe wasn't even top 35. stop pretending this is a "who is better" argument, because no one is arguing that. the only argument up to this point is with those who wanna go back and bash francis for not adjusting to jvg then turn around and say everything will be hunky dory (sp?) with tmac even though things haven't been hunky dory with tmac all the time before. of course winning will cure everything, but if it isn't going well there probably won't be many wins which will bring things out. lets hope that doesn't happen but blindly saying it won't* and then bringing francis into it is just beating a dead horse. *which brings us to this comment from Hmm oh man, he said he's gonna do what his new coach of the team he just demanded a trade to says to do? obviously, if he wasn't he would've probably just said in the paper that he doesn't like jvg and will probably rebel at every chance. that would go over well as he settles into his new town. tmac would say that whether he thought jvg was God or the devil. lets not hang our hopes on that. and now back to Milos. yeah, but at least francis' team only sucked because francis was injured and the team went 2-23 without him and they still managed 28 wins in the west compared to 21 in the east. outside of cuttino, francis had a terrible supporting cast that year but still pulled it together for a 26-31 record when he played. of course, again, none of this changes the fact tmac is better and we're better for having made the trade and we have a better shot at titles and a longer window for having made the trade, it just means you didn't seem to understand what the argument was about.
You did know that McGrady was nusing an injury last year, right? Check the previous years records (and McGrady didn't have the luxury of having Yao).
Again, with the 21 wins. Again, without bring up McGrady's injury....sigh. Great comparison! The fact is, Francis had Yao two years. Yet, not much improvemnt in playing team ball. He shot less, but that didn't equate to better team play. He was just demoted. He was just limted in his tasks. Dumbed down responsiblity. The reason. He can't dribble and think about passsing at the same time. Too complex. Francis: You are fired! End of story. McGrady has the chance to play with Yao now. Let see how he will do....You will finally see the difference between a dumb PG and a smart SG.
Ok, lets talk about "wins" and "player." Let me ask you this. Just because Jordan had mediocre seasons during his first 5 years, does that mean that he's a worse player compared to others players that have better records? What about Akeem? Who languished around 45 wins per season during 87-90? Is he a worse player than those that have better records? My point is that great players need help. They can't do it alone. You actually have to watch them play on the court to SEE. If you are a bad judge of talent (which clearly you are), then you never see the small details that make up the great player. You'll only see the obvious (SF has madd hopps, he's quick, killa cross-over, blah, blah, blah...). So, take McGrady for example. If you watched any of his games, you'll know he's a great scorer, commits very little turnovers and can pass! His team has been hovering around 44 wins for the last 4 seasons (minus his last injury season). And until he gets more talent around him, his (40ish) team records wouldn't have changed (just like Jordan and Akeem). Shaq and Kobe will experience the same thing if they have to carry their teams without the right amount of talent around them. IMO, McGrday has had less talent around him compared to Francis. Francis had his chance with Yao. So, even with MORE talent (Mobley, JJ and Yao) Francis still can't lead his team past mediocrity. Too late. Game over. It's McGrady's turn. Lets see how well he plays with Yao (and JJ).
Francis 4 Prez, I completely understand what the argument is about: Why would people assume McGrady is going to be the good soldier when he has a history of being a problem, much like Francis does? Right? I said, specifically: "If he isn't winning, we will have another Francis situation" Didn't I? I'm not ignoring the fact that it could get ugly with Tracy if we don't win, am I? What I was saying is that there is a double standard for McGrady, at least for a little while...Steve had already been given 5 years to prove himself, so he was on a much shorter leash last year as it was obviously his 'make-or-break' year to stay with the franchise. As the new hero, Tmac will have a much longer leash next year, from fans and management. This special treatment also stems from the fact he is a much better player, and as a result, should be given much more freedom. For example: Last season everyone wanted to crucify Steve for leaving the team to go to the Super Bowl at a time when the Rockets' leadership was already being questioned by fans, and even their own coach. Conversely, if McGrady pulled a similar trick this year, as long as he is still producing wins on the court, I don't think the reaction would be as strong. Why? Because as you said, winning cures all. Now, if Tmac comes in and we end up in the lottery next year, I expect that he would get the same opportunity Steve got...4-5 years with a good team around him to prove he can do it. But that is way down the road. For NEXT YEAR, I believe the Rockets (and Tmac) have at least a one year grace period from most fans to get this team into the elite. Maybe two years at the most. If they win big, this all becomes irrelevant. If not, I don't think anyone would be willing to give up on the team after only one year. The main point is, this will not become another Francis situation anytime soon, so saying Tmac's history could create a similar rift between he and Van Gundy is a false conclusion. Believe me, if Steve had McGrady's talent, he would still be here because JVG is smart enough to know you can PR-spin your way through anything as long as the talent is worth it. Just ask Phil... Remember, JVG basically hand-picked McGrady...whereas Francis was already here. I'm going to give Jeff the benefit-of-the-doubt that he wouldn't have given his approval to this deal if he thought he was getting back someone who is as-bad or worse than Francis for the chemistry on this team.
We're not hanging our hopes on his word alone. However, we can hang our hopes on the facts AND his word. The fact being, JVG will demand from T-mac what T-mac already has. To be a consistent scorer, to play defense, to share the ball, to play smart, to be effecient and to be a team player AND be ready for moments to take over offensively. All qualities that are not at all strange concepts to T-mac. The difference from demanding something of a player that he doesn't have and never had. One causes frustration and conflict with no result, while the other works over itself nicely by simple time and repetitiveness. T-mac should be the last of our worries. T-mac will be T-mac with a bit few less points, more assists and excellent d, night in and night out. As Milo pointed out, T-mac will not play Steve's role of last season, JVG knows T-mac is no Steve. Our only concern over T-mac should be his back, that's about it. The rest of the worry should be placed on the rest of the team. Is pike going to return to his old dependable shooting form? Will Yao finally reach 20/10 or better 22/12? Will boki get more playing time and show to be our future SF once JJ retires? Will a duo of Juwan and Mo prove to be enough at the PF spot against the west? Will we aquire the right pg for this starting team? Other than that, I don't see any chemistry problems comming from our players, especially T-mac. T-mac under JVG does not= Steve under JVG.
Francis won 45 games without the luxury of Yao also, but all he got was complaints. And he did in the wes. Check the records.
I'm not sure if you just stabbed SF in the back or not... The 2000-2001 (45 wins) season had Hakeem (10ppg), Mobley, Anderson, Bullard, Thomas, Walt Williams, Kelvin Cato...Now, even though this was Hakeem's last year. That still was a nice core of veteran talent on that team. But, OK, lets pretend that Hakeem wasn't a factor (Mobley and the rest of the players...). And that the 2001 team was just a bunch of scrubs and Francis did it all himself. The question then would be why does SF manage to get 45 wins with a team that has less talent (2000-2001; scrub team) but also achieves the same record (approx) with another team (Yao; 2nd All-Star + Mobley) that has more talent? That's because SF is a shooting guard, playing point, that doesn't get others involved very well. So, it wont matter how much talent you bring in, he'll always be playing within his little world. This is why if you bring in a younger Yao even though he gives you 16-18ppg, it still doesn't improve the team record by much....becaue the one common denominator is SF. How do a explain this better? Ok... He marginalizes the team's talent. He just doesn't know how to make others better. He just knows how to get is own shot. That's not a PG or a leader. It is my belief that no matter how much talent you brought in, it wouldn't matter as long as SF was running the point. It almost becomes a strange science for the coach because he has to limit the touches that SF has, but also get him involved some how. Well, it turns out that's a catch-22. Damned if you do, damed if you don't. Ok, let me say it another way... Think of the team as a five-point star. You have four guys all on the same page. They all KNOW their assignments and know their own limitations and know the plays. Then, you have one guy that doesn't know his assessments, his own limitations, or the plays (or he might before the play starts...but...). When each play starts, you have the ball flowing through the offense, and the action starts. Everything seem to be going fine until the ball reaches the clueless player (the athletically gifted; SF). Then, everyone starts to get out of place, confused and lost. It was because the guy that broke the flow was "thinking of other things (in his own little world)" not the play at hand. And it doesn't take much to break the system down. Just the slightest bit of hesitation can be a missed opportunity for a pass, or a pick and roll. All the other guys were in the right place, but they didn't receive the ball when they were supposed to. And this is just not post entry passing, but also proper running of the pick and role and cutters. For SF, if it wasn't his bad timing on those hesitations then it was the *dead-lock feeling* the play would get when he'd get the ball in his hands and then go into one of his ISO moves. It was almost like he "forgot" about the play, the screen, the cutter, the whole play. These are the little things that make or break a play. And the number of times that these errors are committed (a lot) is a good indicator that the "timing mistakes" are caused by this single player himself. This type of player will bog-down any team no matter how much collective talent they have. Talent is ony half the equation. You have to have smarts to run the plays in order to have a successful team.
You guys act like Yao put up numbers that should automatically equal a 50 win season. Every quality big man in the West put up equal or better numbers than Yao. He has done nothing special yet, so to act like Steve Francis is holding back some dominant force is ludicrous. There was nothing special about Yao's numbers last season, and definitly not the season before. Add to that he fluttered down the stretch his rookie year. So to argue that Steve wasn't maximizing some great big man of the ages is ridiculous. If Yao averaged about 22 and 11, then you would have an argument that Francis wasn't getting the most out of the team.
So, you are saying that the team last year was worse (in talent) than the 2000-2001 team? Huh? You gonna recant on that? "...(Yao)dominant force is ludicrous." It's not about the 2nd comming of Wilt. It's about using his talents; what ever that may be. And Yao's no scrub! In team sense, it's not about Yao being great, this or that, or 18ppg or 22ppg, blah, blah, blah (counting stats)...it's about Francis brain and ablity to make his team better and utilize his teammates, HOW EVER MUCH TALENT THEY HAVE! If they have more, then it's a bonus. But it starts with the team's leader! If the team happens to have more talent, then great. That great player will make them better. You have to watch the player to see this (SF). If you can't see this, then you'll never see it. When will you understand that SF is NOT A PG! He's not even a smart SG!
This is soooooooooo stupid. So was the 45 wins in 00-01 good or not good. I could turn around the question on you. So if they were less talented, then Steve Francis actually made his team better in 00-01 so you have no argument, or are you going to recant.
pgabriel, I never implied that they were "less talented" in 2000! You were implying that the 2000-2001 team was done by Francis alone! That he was the leader, and that he was the reason that they achieve it. But my suggestion was that THAT team had a good core of players (key word is TEAM); Hakeem, Mobley, Anderson, Bullard, Thomas, Walt Williams, Kelvin Cato...and that was NOT just Francis. It was YOU that was suggesting that. I was just playing along for arguments sake to prove a point. Do you understand? Even if you fast-foward to last years team you still have a soild core of players (more experienced Mobley, MoT, Cato, and Yao). AT this point we are just splitting hairs in determining the whole of the team's talent...This is besides the point. Go back and read my reply again...or let me explain it again... My position is that it doesn't matter what the roster is, Francis will only achieve a limited amount of success. And it wont matter how much talent you bring in with SF as the PG of that team. He helps the team as much as he hurts the team. When will you understand this!? Just sit back and watch next year....then you'll see. And can just hear you know saying, "Oh, the only reason that we're doing great is because Yao is averaging 20/10, blah, blah, blah...giving no creit to our McGrady or our new PG" But if that happens, the major factor will because SF has been removed from this team, not in spite of it.
I guarantee, if Yao doesn't improve that this team won't improve, and if he does put up 20 and 10 on a consistent basis, it will improve. Yao, improved his numbers dramatically from season 1 to season 2, so to argue that if Francis was on this team, Yao wouldn't improve has no basis. Yao has already improved with Steve on the team. And the team improved also btw. So to argue that it would happen with Steve is just plain hating.
Btw, your whole argument is what gets me upset when ever talking about Francis on this board. You agree, that the team probably maximized its potential in 00-01 but that had nothing to do with Francis. Then you argue that it didn't this past season and that's all Francis's fault. Yet people think the Francis supporters are biased.
So, are you saying that timing, entry passing, less turnovers, and a better competency at PG and SG wont have an effect on Yao ppg? Really? Do you think that everything just works in statical vacuums, OR, that everything is tied to each other in terms of team dynamics? I pick the later. And Yes, Yao would improve in spite of Francis. But that's on an individual basis that is beyond SF control. Yao can learn, he can improve on his own. SF can not learn, he can't improve on his own (he needs other to cover his mistakes). This is on an individual basis. Now, when we talk about the TEAM. That's another story! That's where Francis would hold us back. Because in order to become a like-minded team where we are all on the same page, you need player can can think on his feet. And SF would always be the weak link in the chain, in spite of all the great athletic things he could bring us. So, if SF would have stayed on this team, sure...we could ride the coattails of Yao as long as he, individually, improved. But there would be NO championship in our future if we built a TEAM like that.
