And yet they came here in the first place (via trade or free agency) because Drayton was willing to shell out tons of money. Something you continue to ignore when whining about him. If you could have predicted 5 years ago that Bagwell's shoulder would have degenerated, then I'd love to hear what you know about other players and what kind of shape they will be in 5 years from now.
We HAVE Clemens already - what's your point? We already have the key components to excel in the postsesaon. Freaking Randy Winn or the like isn't going to make a difference there. That's the whole point. How you are unable to comprehend basic economics of buying and selling is mind boggling. The W/L record when Clemens pitches demonstrates that our winning season is a TEAM effort. We have plenty of other people contributing - this team is not just winning right now on the back of Clemens. It was completely unrelated to the discussion of trade scenarios, but on the make up of the team and how we're winning.
Like I said, "He is 1/3 of the only reason we would have had a realistic shot through the postseason." Everyone else contributed to get them to this point but it would have been the sheer brilliance and dominance of that top 3 and Brad Lidge that would have gotten them through the postseason. Greatness like that doesn't come along too often. You are sorely underestimating Roger Clemens when you lump him in a core along with Taveres and other replaceable parts. He is greatness manifested - when you have that, you go all out to give it a chance. I'm hoping you're right that there just wasn't any deal out there because I would hate to think Purpura is delusional enough to consider this lineup good enough.
Major: If you're saying that a deal couldn't be made within a reasonable price, I can accept that. But if you're saying that a deal wasn't needed and this lineup will be sufficient...I just have to strongly disagree.
The point is that we don't have Clemens for too much longer, so the time to act is now. I have no idea why you continue to bring up Randy Winn, when better players were available, like Dunn and Huff. Then you claim we have the pieces to excel in the postseason. Um, didn't the Cardinals sweep us not too long ago? Wouldn't we play them in the postseason? Comprende? Finally, I fully understand the economics of buying and selling. Those economics are quite different when Drayton is holding the purse strings. Gerry Hunsicker seems to agree with me...
I don't think anybody is thinking that this lineup is anywhere close to being a "powerhouse"... but the player we were looking for was a decent-hitting OF, with some experience, and one that wasn't owed exorbitant amounts on a contract. Basically... out of the guys who ended up getting traded... that limited that list to Randy Winn, Jose Cruz Jr. and Matt Lawton. Now, all 3 would have made the Astros better than they are now... but none of them would make the offense good enough to beat St. Louis in a 7 game series (provided the cardinals are fully healthy... which is actually going to be highly questionable in october). The Reds weren't going to give Dunn away for nothing... and if they were, you would have seen St. Louis, Chicago, or any other team in need of outfielders all over that as well. No team (big or mid market) were willing to touch Griffey with a 2000 foot pole. And Manny, in the end, was just being Manny. I know its hard to accept the fact that this will be our lineup going into the playoffs... but we could have had a Winn, Cruz, or Lawton all year and probably not be that much better than we are right now. Our offense will depend solely on whether Ensberg can continue his big season, and whether or not Lance continues on his upward trend back towards his career slugging/OBP #'s. This team wins with pitching and timely hitting... nothing more, nothing less. In the playoffs, they'll need even more of that. They'll need guys like Lamb and Bruntlett to continue to get big hits at the right time. They'll need Orlando Palmeiro to carry his stellar season average when he faces Smoltz and Hudson. They'll need Jason Lane to gain confidence in those great abilities he shows flashes of. But in the end, we're talking about the playoffs like they're tommorow. This team is just now starting to find itself... and there could be a whole different perspective on things come October. For now, we'll just have to wait and see.
Adam Dunn and Aubrey Huff were not available to us. The Reds were in complete shambles about who to move at the deadline - and preferred to wait until the winter anyways. Huff was a part of the Ramirez deal - and unavailable until Tampa gave up on it - and there was no way the Devil Rays were going to easily give up on those talks, given the wealth of prospects they were slated to get.
I definitely think he's saying the former, and using the latter as a way to soothe the anger that some of you have right now. I also forgot to mention in my last post that St. Louis and The Yankees were also in dire need of outfield help in their lineups... yet the right deals weren't out there for them either. This was just one sh***y trade deadline, and we all knew that when the Reds stopped offering Dunn, and the D-Rays decided to play hardball with all teams (not just our beloved houston astros).
What would you have been willing to trade to get Dunn and Huff? And what was your proposed deal for Manny that you thought we should have made? Wow, that's your argument? That we lost 3 games to a team, so we have to make a trade to beat them? The Cardinals just lost series to the Cubs and Brewers. If they play them in the postseason, do you think they'd be unable to beat them? Both the Cardinals and Astros are worst this year than last. The series came down to a pitch here or there last year... I have no reason to think it wouldn't do the same this year.
Exactly. I posted earlier in the week that the test for Purpura would be if those good guys (Dunn, Huff, etc) got traded to other places at reasonable prices. I would have loved to add Huff, Alou, Kent, or Griffey to this year (Dunn also, but not as much). There were lots of teams interested in those names, and the fact that none of them got traded tells me that the only way to get them was to overpay. I'm not going to blame Purpura for not doing that. As it stands, the best teams in the NL are Cards, Braves, and Astros. Cards have the best offense. Astros have the best pitching. It's a tossup as to who'd win between the three, in my opinion. Our offense is not that much worse than the others (as attested to by being the #1 offense for the past month), and their pitching is not that much worse than ours. Nothing that was available to us would have changed that. It will likely come down to what team is hot down the stretch, but there's no reason to think we can't win with this group.
Judging Tim Purpura based on one of the worst trade deadlines in a long time is not fair. This deadline makes 2003's look awesome, and that's saying a lot. I'm not saying we didn't need a bat: we did, and still do. But however, based on what was readily available and at their reported prices, the team honestly has better options in house if they just hit like they can. (See Mike Lamb when comparing people to a Cruz Jr type, and Lamb isn't better than Lawton overall but he fits the run producer mold better than Lawton does) If you want some examples of how bad it was, I'll be happy to oblige: 1) Danys Baez and Chuck Lamar's(TB GM) trade demands(he told the Mets he wanted Jose Reyes or David Wright for him, and of course the Mets said goodbye, click. Now imagine what Huff's price tag would be) Not to mention the only deal he would consider for Huff was the 3 way with Manny which was incredibly unlikely to happen in the 1st place. 2) The Reds were so against trading that they wouldn't move freaking Rich Aurilia. Yes, I said that right, Rich Aurilia. So if they wouldn't move Aurilia, obviously Dunn, Kearns and Griffey weren't going anywhere. The Reds are so set against trading that they are unlikely to move even Rich Aurilia. ''If I had to handicap it, I'd say we're probably not going to do anymore,'' general manager Dan O'Brien said. Source: Cincinnati Enquirer(from rotoworld.com) 3) AJ Burnett stayed in Florida, despite the fact the Marlins will not resign him after the year and many AL contenders were after him. This is because Florida is in both the WC and NL East race. 4) The biggest names moved were Randy Winn, Phil Nevin, Jose Cruz Jr, and Matt Lawton. For pitchers it was Chan Ho Park, Kyle Farnsworth, and Ron Villone. Those names by themselves should make it obvious how bad this deadline was this year. Jamie Moyer would have been the best SP moved, but he not only blocked a trade to Houston, but a trade to Atlanta, and he's not that good. 5) The Royals didn't move Mike Sweeney, even though it's obvious they should have. Same goes for Milwaukee and Overbay(they have Fielder ready for the show). Furthermore, concerning teams like Milwaukee, they are more concerned with trying to have a winning season for their fans than doing their usual seller routine. Same goes for Detroit and a few other teams. 6) The NL West/East screwed a lot of things up. The Giants 13 games under 500, traded young players for another 30 and older player in randy winn. Why? Because Arizona leads that division with a 52-55 record. So therefore a bunch of teams who should have been sellers weren't. Conversely, with all 5 teams in the NL East being within striking distance of the WC/Division, there were 5 more buyers and 5 less sellers in the market. The bottom line is this deadline eclipsed 2003 as the worst in recent memory, and it did so easily. And that was the year that the Orioles wanted Ensberg, Lane and Buck for Ponson(who was almost traded for Nevin this year). In fact, I can probably name the amount of sellers in this years trade market on one hand. TB, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Colorado were the only real sellers. The Reds were all talk; the Brewers are shooting for 500, as are Baltimore/Detroit/Toronto, and Kansas City did nothing. Not only that, TB wanted ridiculous returns on their players(ie Kazmir for Zambrano sequels); Seattle only wanted to dump Winn, Moyer and Pineiro; Pittsburgh had only Redman, Mesa, Lawton and possibly Kip Wells on the block and they were obviously picky on their return demands;Colorado moved Preston Wilson and Kennedy and Chacon(everything except Helton worth something). Bottom line is there just wasn't much talent even available this deadline, and you had like 80% buyers/20% sellers on a thin market to begin with. That equals disaster. So then you have to take into account that the Astros were against rent a players so their pool of players was even smaller. The only really viable options that I see after this all shook down were Cruz Jr in a platoon with Burke, or a guy like Lawton for a good prospect(Gerut has proved himself at the MLB level to at least be able to perform somewhat). The mariners only moved Winn because the giants offered Jesse Foppert(a top prospect a year removed from Tommy John surgery). And winn nor lawton were the kind of run producer they need, in fact they are leadoff type hitters. The point is while I wanted a bat that could really put us in a great position talent wise to maximize our pitching staff, there just wasn't one either available or available reasonably. I'm not going to blame Purpura for not doing anything at the worst trade deadline in a long time. However, if he doesn't address the offense in the upcoming offseason, then fire away, because he knows what holes he'll need to address at that time, along with having the time and resources to do that.
Here is what they got for Lawton: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?statsId=6634 A cheap lefty hitting outfielder who can be an adequate replacement for them. Essentially a more productive player than Chris Burke, and a similar talent to Jason Lane except that he is LH. So in summation, would you have done Jason Lane for Matt Lawton(a rent a player, btw) because that's pretty much a similar price to what the cubs paid.
I guess I dislike Drayton as much as anyone. But, I do not blame Drayton this time. I think a prudent owner should not give away the farm to get average players. IMO, the decision boiled down to players not money. I for one am glad we didn't give away Burke and/or Nieve. On the other hand, I also agree with Clutch. I am a little worried that TP is a little scared to pull the trigger on deals. Gerry used to always pull something out of his hat. But, I will reserve judgement until we have enough time to evaluate TP. I guess it isn't fair to TP when we compare him to Gerry. LETS SIT BACK AND ENJOY THE RIDE. WE HAVE A FIGHTING CHANCE.
Lane for Lawton is a no brainer. Maybe there was something Purpura didn't like about Lawton. hmmmm...... AB? LOL
I think this will be a prominent issue throughout the remainder of the Astros season and offseason. Should we have mortgaged our future for a bat? When I first read the Nieve-Buckholz-Astachio for Dunn rumor, my initial reaction was HEELLLLLLL NO. However, during our recent run and watching how truly dominant our pitching can be, I've changed my stance. You gotta add a bat. I think we can all agree on this, and I think we can all agree that the likes of Winn, Lawton, Cameron, etc etc aren't the bats we want. - Ramirez was unattainable. The RedSox weren't looking to trade him for prospects. They would have wanted Qualls, and Lane on top of our prospects at the very least. (even then Boston fans would have said they got too little)Trading our future is one thing, but tinkering with our current roster is too much. Come playoff time Qualls, Wheeler, and Gallo will be just as important as Lidge. - Dunn. I think I would have pulled the trigger on the aforemention trade, but the thing is you gotta be able to hit for average in the playoffs. Even if we did make a trade for Dunn, come October we would be pulling our hair out as he strikes out 3 times a game. - Soriano. See above, he's not good at hitting for contact and strikes out too much. This is why he got traded in the first place. - Huff. I think Purpura should have went after this guy the hardest. Tampa Bay was looking to trade him for prospects, so he was definitely attainable. You have to realize that neither of those pitchers are considered top flight prospects. Buckholz has the best stuff and the only one who has ace potential, but has had arm problems which is always a red flag. Assuming Tampa Bay would have taken Nieve-Buckholz-Astachio for Huff, Purpura should have done it. It would have depleted our immediate farm system similar to what happened with the Randy Johnson trade, but still, no one really regrets that trade. There's absolutely no way our offense will be sufficient for the playoffs. We should have mortgaged our future, cause as I see it we're pretenders. Getting a legitimate RBI producer like Dunn or Huff (preferably) would have put us as favorites in the NL imo, and I think Purpura dropped the ball this deadline.
Does anyone think that Purpura might not feel a sense of urgency about this season because this is his first year as GM? He may be more concerned with building this team the way he wants in the long term then winning it all right now.
My initial reaction was that because because Purpura handled the majority of the scouting for the Astros before he became GM, and has watched these guys come along, he was more reluctant to deal them, perhaps overvaluing his own prospects. I agree almost completely with Bassfly's post. We sorely needed a bat. Whether that bat was attainable is a different issue, but you cannot argue that we sorely did not need a bat. For the future of Purpura's reign, I really hope, for the sake of this organization, that there just wasn't anything available. It scares me though that he completed a deal to send Nieve for Moyer. Our biggest need was a LHP?
You can ask Tim about why the astros didn't make a trade at 3pm today. He'll be doing an online chat. http://houston.astros.mlb.com/NASAp...t_id=1148079&vkey=news_hou&fext=.jsp&c_id=hou
