Had it been msn or rikesh36 or someother poster not named Rocketman95, Trader_Jorge would probably have slurped down another bowl of Wolf chili instead of posting. Obsession, it's not just a fragrance...
Not a valid comparison. I will happily make the donation to CF.Net should the Astros stay in the wild card hunt, as stipulated in the bet. (Major will you finally donate?) The difference is that Rocketman95 and the other Drayton apologists were using the "trade for a bat at midseason" argument to minimize the damage done from the disastrous offseason. They basically were saying, 'don't worry about all the losses over the offseason, we're going to make another deadline deal to plug the hole'. Well, they were wrong, and it should be noted. Drayton proved he was not committed to improving the team by not getting it done -- not getting it done over the offseason and not getting it done at the deadline. Maybe Purpura is just terrible. Maybe he's hamstrung by Drayton's penny-pinching ways, which is what drove Hunsicker out of town. Either way, this team needs a bat. When it became increasingly apparent that the Astros weren't going to make a move, the Drayton apologists shifted course and adopted the 'oh well no one is out there' or the 'we don't need a bat, two months is not a fluke' argument. You can't expect to win a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP (which should be the goal here, not simply a wild card berth) when the bottom of your order has so many automatic outs.
Of course it is a valid comparison. Changing situations lead to changed opinions. If that is flip-flopping, then everyone flip-flops all the time. Early in the season it apepared the Astros needed another started and/or reliever. Over the course of June and July, the bullpen has improved and Rodriguez appears to be a bona-fide starter. Sure they could have used an extra bat (they still may get one), but I doubt it had anything to so with money. Simple question which you can answer yes or no - Do you now think the Astros will be a viable contender for a playoff spot heading into September (i.e. within 5 games or less)? If so, then you have changed your opinion since they were 15-23 (i.e. you have "flip-flopped). If not, then let's double the bet. Which is it?
You are correct. Other Drayton apologists and myself used that argument since every season prior to 2005 (and as far as I know for this season), the games had to be played before the playoff participants were identified. Wrong. We were basically saying 'you still have to play the games before you can make a determination on how the season will end. If our record indicates we have to make a deal, then we will make a deal benefitting our club'. Or maybe there wasn't any out there that was worth bothering making a trade for. I would've liked Lawton. Hearing that the Cubs obtained him, I'll be interested to see what they gave up to get him and what we have in our system that compares. If it comes out that we could've had Lawton for not much, then I will be the first to b****. And if Lawton then hits .200 for the Cubs, I will be the first to say I was wrong about wanting the Astros to go after him. Please prove this accusation. Most likely. Randy Winn is not that bat. When it became increasingly apparent that the Astros would compete for a playoff spot, not even a "true fan" like yourself could post one congratulatory post, instead you harp on past problems that aren't really relevant at this moment. I feel sorry for you that you can't enjoy this baseball season that has the Astros in playoff position when the month of August begins. We'll see. Four out of the last five WORLD CHAMPIONS were recipients of the wild card berth.
bobrek, I really don't know how to make this more clear, but will try. With respect to our bet, I fully accept that if the season ended today, I would lose and happily donate the money to Clutch. I'm due for another donation anyhow. He deserves it. I'm not cheap. No problem at all. Heck, I may go over and above the $25 that we stipulated. I can tell you that it won't be due to your nagging and attempting to change the bet after the fact, but rather due to a well-deserved reward for a well-run website. The reason Rocketman95 flip flopped is because our bottom of the order still stinks. It is not world championship caliber. If someone would like to prove the case that Jason Lane, Adam Everett, Chris Burke, and Brad Ausmus are good enough sticks to lead us to the promised land, than please do so. I think the majority of rational baseball fans would disagree mightily, regardless of the recent string of wins. The flip flop occurred because the problem still exists. The problem still exists and his opinion reversed course. Totally different than our bet, bobrek. In our bet, the problem no longer exists and the facts have proven the bet to be a winner for you. It's all but decided, barring a monumental collapse. If Lane, Burke, Everett, and Ausmus were hitting .400 with 40 homers, then Rocketman95 would be justified in changing his opinion. However, as we all know, that is far from the case. That's the difference.
Winning is all that matters Trader_Jorge. If me admitting that I was wrong will prompt a congratulatory post from you regarding the team's success thus far, then whatever. I would like to know why you continue to whine and moan about who was wrong four months ago while the Astros hold the wild card lead. Why is it that you cannot be happy that the Good Guys would be in the playoffs if they started today, July 31st? But I'm sorry that I don't feel that any of the guys traded (Lawton excluded) would push this team (the best in the majors for half a season). If my not wanting Larry Bigbie proves a statement made by me in March incorrect, then there, I'll give that to you. Hope you sleep better tonight.
Facts have also changed since they were 15-23 (on their way to 15-30). 1. The starting pitching has gotten stronger. 2. Lane, Burke, Ausmus and Everett are all hitting much better. Everett has hit around .265 since the end of May. Ausmus hit over .300 this month. Burke has hit .250 since the end of May and Lane .280. That doesn't even bring into account what Berkman and Ensberg have done. So while the hitting could be improved, it is not nearly in as bad a shape as it was two months ago, thus the need for additional offense has abated. 3. The relief pitching has also improved. So to state it simply, facts were DIFFERENT back in May. Facts have indeed changed with respect to the team's needs. Incidentally, who was the player or players you were publically advocating for the Astros to sign as free agents during the "disastrous" offseason?
I was concerned with the offseason losses, but expected us to at least contend even if we didn't make playoffs. I still think being concerned about the offseason losses is legitmate because when the goal is to win the world series....it's always nice to see the team improve. That is the past now though, so I will focus on the current team. We clearly aren't as bad as we played for a while. Also we PROBABLY aren't as good as we are playing right now (best team in MLB good). Will have to wait and see where this team settles at. Probably somewhat less than the current winning pace, but better than early in the season. I will say this, although we need another bat probably... if we are only pitching 3 starters in the playoffs.. roger, oswalt, and andy could carry us on few runs..
Man, what is it with old decaying left-handed starters and the Astros? Anybody remember Al Leiter's rejection a few years back? Baseball-reference.com lists Jamie Moyer as the 5th most similar pitcher to Leiter through age 38, for what it's worth. (It is near the bottom of the page.) Of course, Moyer is 41 now...
It is quite convenient for the Drayton apologists to throw out names like Randy Winn or Larry Bigbie and say they couldn't help the team. Isn't it strange that the apologists would exclude the most talked about name -- Adam Dunn? Or other talked about names like Mike Sweeney or ManRam (a pipe dream given Drayton's purse strings)? I mean, given that the apologists spent the early months of the season reassuring us that the front office would make a move at the deadline for a bat, it just seems odd that this case of selective amnesia has overcome them... Anyone else agree with bobrek that our bottom half of the order is world championship caliber? I don't. The rest of the league doesn't. Most fans on here would have liked to have seen a bat added. Hey, at least no one was dumped for salary purposes, like they were this offseason... Looks like the front office is improving!
TJ -- we're 9 games over .500. we're in first place for the wild card right now. get the stick out of your ass and enjoy the season.
Even you understand basic economics, I think. Lots of buyers... not enough sellers = very high prices. Given that none of the "big names" got traded (Huff, Dunn, Manny, etc) to anyone, do you think that just maybe the prices were way too high and <B>every team</B> saw this?
I'm stunned that the team has done what they have done ... I really am. I did not see it possible. Not after starting Taveras and Scott (WTF?), jumping out of the gate the way they did and seeing Bagwell bow out. So they have definitely proven me wrong. BUT, just because they are winning now doesn't mean they didn't have to make a move -- in fact it should have pushed them to make one. The window of opportunity for this pitching staff (which right now is World Championship caliber) is not big. Roger Clemens has started 21 games at a sick 1.46 ERA ... and doesn't have double-digit wins yet. They need a bat. I was a little shocked they didn't make a move. Serious question here -- what has Tim Purpura accomplished since taking over the GM reigns? I'm not being sarcastic... I'd feel better if I knew of something that he did that I'm not currently aware of. Right now it looks like the man's contributions include running off Kent and introducing the addition of a healthy Lance Berkman, but maybe there's more. If Hunsicker was in there I would at least feel a little bit more like this meant that nothing was really possible via the trade market ... with Purpura I don't know. Didn't the Cardinals get Larry Walker last year after the deadline via waivers? Seriously doubt anything like that is possible, but I sure wish they could add a stick.
I agree with Clutch, we need a another big steak. Adam Everett has the be the worst no.6 hitter in the game and Burke the least productive starting OF. Brunlett deserves more playing time and so does Palmerio. Its obvious that Burke is not ready for the big leagues. Burke has little value as a OF, so send him down and let him season a little more.
One of the prospects would have been in Fernando Nieve. Hell no would I give up Nieve for 43 year old pitcher. Purpura would have looked dumb if Moyer accepted this trade, thankfully he didn't.
The names Randy Winn and Larry Bigbie are thrown out there, because they're the people who got traded. Adam Dunn? Didn't get moved because the Reds asking price was too high. Ken Griffey jr? Didnt get moved because the Reds asking price was too high. Manny Ramirez? Didn't get moved because the Red Sox asking price was too high. Aubrey Huff? Didn't get moved because the Devil Rays asking price was too high. No big names got moved, because the bad teams with veteran assets overplayed their hands and tried to grab too much talent - and the playoff contenders just weren't willing to pay it. The only player that moved who could've made an impact with the Astros was Matt Lawton, which is irksome that we didn't end up with him - but that's how pathetic a trade deadline this was.
He didn't panic - that's his biggest move. It would have been easy to go out and spend the $18M we saved on Beltran to go out and get marginal talent to say he was doing something. Look at the Nationals. They got Preston Wilson. The result? They had to bench their super-rookie Ryan Church, and for whatever reason, their team has been in a tailspin ever since. If nothing is available, being desperate and just making a move for the sake of looking like they were doing something can be counterproductive. The fact that no big hitter moved tells me that prices were probably too high. Maybe the best move was to stand pat. We won't know whether that was a good decision until the end of the year. Astros players have said for the last week or two that they are happy with the team, like the chemistry, and don't feel a move is necessary (as opposed to earlier in the season) ... we'll see if they were right. Bottom line is he gave the rookies a chance (something not all GMs are willing to do) and has a team that is now leading the wild card.
Honestly, I'm not sure they really overplayed their hands. The sellers were in a position of power this year. Unlike Randy Johnson, Beltran, etc - these big names aren't in the final years of their contract this year. All those teams can still trade those players during the offseason or next deadline, so there was no urgency for them. It's just one of those years, with so many teams in contention, that very few big-name free-agent hitters were out there (if any?).
