Movie: Hero starring Jet Li

yes... dude... why do we agree on everything?

the chinese hero is one of self sacrafice. i loved that theme.

 

this makes no sense at all. neither did your post about jin yong. there is no logic here whatsoever.

the debated ended when you started judging chinese culture without being chinese. i will respond to no further posts. the thread deserves better than your drivel.

 

The existence of such a thing as "China" DOES NOT justify the murders of countless innocent people, no matter how long ago they lived. Those people had their own nations, they did NOT want to be conquered and killed for some future nation/culture to arise. Like I asked, would the existence of some grand new culture forged from Japan and China justify Japan's invasion in the mid part of the last century? Because that's exactly what you're arguing for.

 

If you learn how to read, you might have seen that Jin Yong also protested against the glorification of a conqueror who built an empire by killing countless innocents. He's Chinese, so are you saying he cannot critique "Chinese values" either? The debate never began because you are arguing from provincialism.

 

Actual: First Emperor invades other countries, yoking them together under his rule, AGAINST the wishes of those nations and their inhabitants, killing countless innocents in the process. Now we have China. Yippee. Certain people, two thousand years later, praise him.

Hypothetical: Japan conquers China, successfully yoking the two nations together against the wishes of China and its people, murdering millions in the process. If some of you lived two thousand years from now, you would be praising that action. Pathetic.

 

please apply your logic and sovereignty of nations to america and the native americans. thousands died... but from it was forged the greatest and most free nation. was it right? was it just? was it worth it? it's not my place to judge.

and yeah i read those two posts. the break in logic here is that i never questioned jin yong's right to his opinion, as a historian and as a Chinese. you, though, have zero right to judge.

again, this thread deserves no more of your nonsense, i have done my last to provoke any.

 

Hmm...what language do they speak in those Hong Kong movies? What country does Hong Kong belong to? That's what I thought...And besides, Korea and Japan don't do the kind of movies that are in the same genre as the chinese movies.

 

Kung Pow was a good Chinese/Hong Kong flick. I would definitely say it puts CTHD to shame.

 

that's not really true... they have similar movies. Korean movie... i liked Musa: the Warrior. incidentally that has Zhang Zi Yi in it... although i'm not a huge fan.

Japanese movie... I remember watching a movie called Onimuji... I thought that was okay. That genre is pretty prevalent in China / HK cinema.

hong kong movies... the best one to come out recently has been "Infernal Affairs"... which they are re-making starring brad pitt but then that release date is pretty far away. if you like historical kung-fu movies... then i would suggest some old jet li stuff. if you like more modern flicks... i like Ekin Cheng and sort of in between there's you know the Donnie Yen stuff (hmm... incidentally he was in hero as well).

but yeah... Hong Kong movies are so commercialized that when something good comes out the peasants rejoice... like I rejoiced when Infernal Affairs came out... hm... that has Tony Leung too, also in Hero. but there's no kung fu if that's what you're looking for.

sadly... newer Hong Kong movies aren't really great if you can't understand the dialogue. so that's why i've learned Cantonese. Japanese movies are really amazing too... but I don't really have time to learn the language... subtitles just take so much away.

 

haha...

"my nipples look like milk duds!"

"weeeooohweeeeooohwee..."

 

Who are you to judge who does or doesn't have a right to judge? Any moral being has the right to judge. The genocide of American Indians was a hideous chapter in human history, why should any concerned citizen of the world not have the right to say so? Keep hiding behind your so-called "Chinese values"--I am just as Chinese as you are, and even if I were not, and was instead from, who knows, Barbados, I would still be completely justified in saying that your "Chinese values," insofar as you're using them to justify the murder of countless innocents, are morally corrupt.

 

I am always hunting aroung for good movies but have not really seen that many from Asia. Outside of Japanese Akira Kurosawa films some of the older HK Chow Yun-Fat movies i have seen few.

Infernal Affairs sounds really interesting. Do you have any other suggestions for must see Asian flicks?

Also i tend to disagree on loosing too much with subtitles. I probally watch as many subtitled movies as i do in English and with most of them i doesnt seem like i am missing anything. I may have a differenet opinion if i spoke another language and could see how it translates firsthand. Still, even if you miss something its better than missing out on some of the best movies around. However i think there is one exception and that is comedies. For the most part subtile humor is completly lost.

 

Sorry that sentence didnt make any sense. This is better: I have seen a small number of them outside of Japanese Akira Kurosawa films and some older HK Chow Yun-Fat flicks.

 

i agree with you. some of what is made doesn't get enough pub... but at least if your talking about HK and China, there's a dearth anyway. and yeah i was pimarily talking about comedies when i mentioned the lost in translation.

Chow Yun Fat... those movies were great weren't they? He had presence. Hard Boiled. For a Better Tomorrow. Good stuff. Good enough stuff that I watched Anna and the King, the Corruptor, and Bulletproof Monk. I guess not all of which were bad.

Infernal Affairs is really good... it now has two sequels... which are also supposed to be good. Stars some of the biggest movie stars in Hong Kong today. Not a lot of serious movies are made in HK these days.

A couple of good ones from the nineties are:

Running Out of Time (Andy Lau... maybe you can find it in Blockbuster?)

Farewell My Concubine (Leslie Cheung... his movies are generally okay, this maybe at blockbuster too)

Ashes of Time (tony leung AND leslie cheung, haha, this is a kung-fu movies... A LOT of people love this movie... I don't particularly)

Some from mainland China

Zhang Yi Mou's previous stuff. I mean some of this stuff is deep and disturbing... but it accurately captures the ethos of certain aspects of Chinese culture.

Raise the Red Lantern
Ju Dou

are two that are pretty popular.

There's this film noir one: Carla My Dog... (loose translation), that was kind of big. but... you'd kind of have to know the culture i guess... or maybe not.

The King of Masks... WOW... powerful! i think this one is out on DVD in America.

hm... when i think of more i'll let you know.

korean movies... check out "My Sassy Girl" kind of a chick flick. or "the way home" <--- beautiful movie.

what else... oh i came up with some recent hongkong movies that were enjoyable.

"Needing You" (andy lau and sammie cheng... love story... commercialized but better than the usual)

"Shao Lin Soccer" being released in america... hey Ebert and Roeper gave it two thumbs up!

alright i'm gonna stop... if you can't tell besides the Chiefs and Cards I also like movies.

 

yipengzhao,

Thanks for the reccomendations. They will add some diversity to all of the European movies i have been watching recently. I will look around on Netflix for them but its rather unfortunate that so few of them make it to DVD here.

Another thing is i wish someone in hollywood could produce a good movie with Yun-Fat as the star. I always though he could make it big domestically since he has such a great screen presence. So far his English speaking movies have been a dissapointment for me.

 

I've taken time to calm down from the personal nature of the exchange earlier, and this will likewise be my last words on the subject.

Let's talk about Jet Li's and Tony Leung's characters. You say that they are the other "heroes" of the movie. Tell me how they're heroes? Put yourself in their shoes: the ruler of Qin is invading your country. Remember, there's no such thing as "China" yet. You are very simply a proud citizen of the nation-state of Zhao, or Wei, or Chu, or whichever, and the king of a neighboring nation-state is attacking your home and your people. You have the opportunity to kill him and prevent the subjugation of your homeland. What do you do instead? You somehow believe his invasion of your country is for the greater good, and you offer your countrymen like lambs to the slaughter? Is that your definition of "self-sacrifice"? Self-sacrifice is indeed a noble theme, but the action of these two characters in this movie wasn't self-sacrifice, and it wasn't heroism; it's treason.

Let's set aside any ad hominem attacks, and answer this simple question honestly: if you were in that actual time and place, and you were that assassin, what would you do? The heroic thing to do, the self-sacrificing thing to do, would be to attempt to kill this invading aggressor, to try to stop his advancing army, to save your homeland and your fellow countrymen, even though you know the odds of succeeding are exceedingly slim, and either way, success or failure, would cost you your life. The men who tried to do exactly that have been immortalized in poetry and song and are rightfully celebrated to this day. They were true heroes, tragic figures who gave their lives in a mission-impossible.

Despite you calling me a traitor, by saying I would've cooperated with the Japanese in WWII, I believe your honest answer to my question would be that you would kill the King of Qin. I don't actually believe for a second that, if you were in that situation, you would be a traitor to your country. Tell me I'm not wrong in that assessment.

 

I cracked up the first time I saw Crouching Tiger because so many were wowed by the martial arts scenes, but I'd seen dozens with just as good if not better martial arts segments than that growing up as a HUGE fan of the genre. And it was also funny because I could predict the plot - it was so much like many other movies I had seen.

I think it was just the first time mainstream America post Bruce Lee got a real look at Chinese filmmaking and martial arts coreography in particular. We're so used to shoot-em-up, car chase, head butting, bad asses. The artistry and ballet-like precision of martial arts are just so much more graceful and yet just as intense.

 

This debate won't be solved in Hangout without digging deeply into Chinese history. So, I'll make it short, and I don't expect to convince you.

You interpret history through your own lens, we all do. But yours are oversimplifying, less than comprehansive, and easy to reach. In short, it's a lazy interpretation of a laymen who knows only part of the history. We all hate tyrany, hate violent ruling, your focusing on this is just a easy way out, and not much artistically interesting.

Some more facts maybe a bit helpful. Emperor Qin the First, was a terrible ruler at his later years after he achieved the feast of unifying China, but he was also a wise king, a talented militarist, a ambitoious king who ruled in his own kingdom with the principles from "school of law" (Fa Jia), and enough benevolence. There is no coincidence and small feast for him to conque and unify the country as a king of one of the smaller kingdoms----which is the historical background that film based on.

Chinese do believe the law of the nature is above all, they would later give eulogy to emperors who could rise above the caos and establish his ruling and the order of the country as "true emperor bestowed from Heaven." (zhen Ming tian zi). The wars through out history are so devastating sometimes, intellectuals sometimes were willing to give in to powerful kings in exchange for peace and order. It's perfectly understandable that they sometimes thought giving power to someone capable of ruling was beneficial to the mass socienty and of the higher oder. Qin I was that capable candidate at the time.

At the time frame The film sets in, China has been in constant wars between kingdoms for more than 500 years. People are so sick of the wars, and longed for peace and order, a chance for a better life. Kingdom Qin was the role model kingdom. It growed itself from a small player into a power under the Qin I, first through economic development, then through smart wars.

So, it's rather simplistic and ignorant to just dismiss yipengzhao 's point. This is not a place for an essay, so I won't elaborate. If you need pointers for reading of Chinese history, I might be able to help.

As to the film itslef, I will say the chinemagraphy is great. It's just good overall for me, maybe because I have high standards and high expectations for ZYM. At least, the film brought an interesting angle to interpret the thousand-year-long fokelore.

Peace.

 

Forget to add that Qin I did kill a lot of people later to consolidify his power, but that's long passed the time of "Jingke's assassination attempt of Qin", which is the story there.

And confucion followers later made Qin I even worse than he atually was, since Qin banned confucion. Han was the first dynasty to adopt confucion.

Man, I got to stop.