People complained about Magic's turnovers whenever they wanted to bring him down, either when comparing him to Larry Bird or John Stockton, or to say the Lakers would of won more championships had it not been for those damn turnovers. Of course Magic's 11 assists to 4 turnovers are better than Francis' 7 assists to 3.7 turnovers. Magic was the greatest PG in history! No need to compare him to Francis, I only mentioned him in comparison to Lebron James and his turnover number which I don't think will ever improve because of the style of ball he plays. Are you kidding me? You're asking me who the turnover prone players on the Rockets were even though you listed them for all to see! Jim Jackson as a fourth option had no business averaging 2.2, Mobley should not average 2.5 per game, and Taylor as a sixth man should not average 2 per game. Compare those dudes to the guys on Miami and you'd see why they average an outstanding 13.2 per game despite having two similar turnover prone players in Wade and Shaq as the Rockets had in Francis and Yao. Eddie Jones takes care of the ball, Damon Jones hardly ever turns the ball over, Haslem doesn't either, Dooling as their sixth man takes care of the ball more than Mark Jackson as the first guard off the bench did last season. Those guys didn't start taking care of the ball once they joined Miami, they always did, the guys the Rockets had last season didn't start turning the ball over a lot once they became Rockets, they always did. It's no coincidence that Jeff Van Gundy traded for Tracy McGrady, signed Charlie Ward, traded Jim Jackson for David Wesley, traded Lue for Barry, and benched Taylor permanantly for Howard and Padgett. The Rockets as a team still have problems at the one and the two with taking care of the ball, no sense in having problems at every other position so he fixed that. Francis does have TO problems but so does Wade! You give the Heat last season's Rocket's role players and they'd have problems as a team with turnovers as well. The only difference would be that people wouldn't excuse Wade's turnovers like they do now. How many post players average more than 2.8 turnovers a game? How many get that much or more in less than 32 minutes a game? No they're not born to turn it over, you either do or you don't, those guys know turnovers hurt their team but it's almost impossible to change it no matter how hard they tried to avoid it, it comes with the playmaking. That's why I always laughed when I heard haters say that Francis has to cut down on his turnovers before they recognize him as a good player, I also laughed when I heard optimistic fans say that Jeff Van Gundy would fix it. HAHA! Laughed again. Jeff Van Gundy hates turnovers, but he knows it's not something you can fix, especially not at the NBA level after years and years of playing that way, you either do or you don't. PERIOD! Ok... I also never said we missed Francis. All I'm saying is that it can happen, unlike you who says it never will. What player on that team should be averaging less TOs? I'm surprised because Hill, the playmaking Detroit Hilll, sometimes had his average as high as 3.5 or so, now that his main focus is mostly scoring I guess I shouldn't be surprised. That leaves Francis to yet again handle most of the playmaking duties, a heavy scoring load along with his usual rebounding, same old, same old for him. Why does he have to be implying anything? What if he just meant what he said, no hidden implications. He was comparing those guys. You can be a great player in the NBA with high turnover numbers, Francis is not as good as guys like AI, Kobe or Lebron, but he's still a fine basketball player. You act as if all the guys you listed don't play with players that are 10 times better than any of the players Francis has played with. It's so easy to look great in Parker and Ginobili's case when you have the REAL most dominant player in the NBA on your team. Easy for Billups to look awesome when his front court is the best front court in the NBA. Hinrich? Are you kidding me? Nash and Bibby are the only two I would say are better to build around than Francis, the only two that I can see winning regardless of the quality of their teammates. Would any of those guys be the center piece of a package for Tracy McGrady? Nash and Bibby are the only two. So, why risk that future on any of the other guys you listed? They pretty much fall into the same level that Francis is on, they can lead a winning team, but if you want them to be on championship caliber team they need a lot of help.
The Francis debate will live on forever, as apparently he is traded from team to team. He has never been on a USA team, he has never been voted to the All NBA teams, and now he has been left off the All Star team. Wonder why? Now rumors that Orlando wants to move him. Not a good week for Francis fans.
Saying Francis is the biggest dissapointment in team history is simply stupid and shows that you have no knowledge of basketball. He may have been frustrating, but he is a good NBA-level point guard who gave his all. Eddie Griffin on the otherhand...
Actually, the debate that he is the "most disappointing Rocket ever", hands down, will not go on forever, and it never actually really started, because it was DOA as only somebody with no conception of basketball in general or the Rockets history in particular would attempt to make it in a genuine fashion.
I have absolutely no respect for anybody foolish and bitter enough to say Francis is the most dissappoing Rocket of all time.
Too many. Boki, Eddie, Mooch, Maloney,Ralph, and Dan "the man" Langhi.......Terrence Morris shouldve gotten a better chance also.
I'd have to say that Rudy T was pretty disappointing in terms of coaching/scouting/drafting in the post Olajuwon era.
Rudy, most dissapointing Rocket ever? He did help bring us our first two Championships, or did you just start watching? Get ready to get flamed
Even noting the above comment, you really think he was the "Most dissapointing Rocket"? Note the thread title.
He's a hard working solid and player, but he didn't live up to the expectations (probably unrealistic expectations), that were put on him. How is that stupid? That's just what happened.
Because he played at or around an all-star level, more or less, from day one. Calling his career the most "disappointing" relative to monumental failures of Eddie Griffin, Scottie Pippen, and others who have worn the uniform, who either took a dump on the team, or never produced a thing, or both, is, in fact, stupid.
Why oh why do you take this Francis stuff so personally? For someone who has no conception of basketball, I have done pretty well. I played the game for many years, and still enjoy pick-up games. I have followed the Rockets since Rudy played. We were invited by the thread starter to give OUR OPINION. You speak as if I have the power to make a binding decision on this subject. As I have said many times, I think that Francis is the most overrated player in the league. As a Rocket, he was a crappy passer, poor decision-maker, subpar jumpshooter, horrific playmaker, and a near absent defender. Besides that, in my opinion he was selfish, and advanced his career at the team's expense. I don't care about 20-10. I have said he was and is a great athlete and a fantastic rebounder. I kept waiting for him to improve his weaknesses, he never did. That is what I think. You can think what you want. I doubt we will ever change each other's opinions.
We all know that at least one of those all-star appearances was probably undeserved. And he was expected to bring us back to championship level ball. But all he brought us was multiple trips to the lotto and one first round playoff exit. Thats kinda disappointing don't you think. But I guess it doesn't matter since he got on the cover of NBA Live that one time.
LOL, you're the one who takes it personally judging from your lengthy missives on this thread. I'm glad you have "YOUR OPINION", however, YOUR OPINION, is clearly wrong as far as it is not based on a logical reading of the facts; Anybody with any inkling about basketball would tell you that Francis' career with the Rockets, whether absolute or measured against expectations, was superior to Eddie Griffin's, and or any other number of individuals; you're still entitled to have it, of course, but that doesn't mean it's not wrong. If you're afraid of people telling you such, then keep it to yourself. But check the thread and you'll see I'm not alone in thinking that you are just blindly spewing rather than using any applicable form of logic. Even a dyed-in-the-wool Francis basher like DavidS, who has written lengthy monologues on his faults in microscopic detail, has conceded that it is foolish to label him as the "most disappointing", so govern yourself accordingly.
I'm not going to argue the merits of his career with you - that has been done to death, please note that I said "at or around an all star level more or less", regardless you have failed to address the salient point, which is: And this compares to Eddie Griffin or Scottie Pippen's tenure - how, exactly? Or John Turner? Or Derrick Chevious? Buck Johnson? John Lucas? Ralph Sampson? Dave Jamerson? Joe Barry Carroll? Sleepy Floyd? Any number of other flame-outs? The nature of this exercise is comparative - hence the term "most".
Francis was pretty disappointing, but the worst had to be Sampson or Griffin. We could've been a dominant dynasty second only to the 60's Celtics if Sampson(KG-like/maybe better ) could've stayed healthy. And EG, 3 1st round draft pics and nothing to show for it...nuff said.
