Clutch mentioned a Battier for Outlaw + Brandon Rush draft day deal that the Rockets & Blazers had talked over. Also did you see this post? http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=3801291&postcount=115
Fair points. Keep in mind, I'm not exactly labeling him a "slasher" by any stretch. I'm just pointing out that he has actually gotten more than one layup last season on a back door cut. Look it up. I promise. Yes, I am assuming that Battier can help the Rockets win a championship. Much like anyone has to ASSUME that someone is capable of contributing on any team that has not actually won a championship yet. As for the third scorer, I don't think Battier was brought in to be the third scorer. The Rockets either have their third scorer already in Luis Scola, or they will attempt to trade for one this February. The fact that Rudy Gay scored 20 ppg on a terrible Grizzlies team is an unfair comparison for Battier, since (a) Gay is naturally more of a scorer to begin with, as CD and Morey already knew; and (b) more importantly, Gay was never the Rockets' pick. If the Battier trade (Plan B, after the Plan A of Brandon Roy fell through) did not go down, then Plan C was to draft THABO SEFALOSHA. Personally, I'd rather have Shane Battier than Thabo Sefalosha and Stromile Swift.
He gets credit if the Rockets have playoff success; otherwise, he's not any better than the previous GMs.
ok then prove it. there are countless benefits to having battier on this team instead of Gay. theres essentially one benefit to having Gay, and that's scoring. if you can prove to me that selecting a career underachiever with a questionable motor, that had bust written all over him, with the 6th pick is a better idea than trading that pick, along with Stromile's salary to memphis in exchange for a proven commodity, that is durable, can defend 2s, 3s, and even 4s in a pinch, doesnt need the ball to work, on a VERY reasonable long term deal, that will releive your fragile superstar wing of primary wing defensive responsibilities, can hit the open three and space the floor, knows every opposing team's offensive sets like the back of his hand and help get the defensive personnel in the right place, and be a good citizen, example for your young players, teacher, and contributor to a playoff team along the way, then i'll listen. until that point, i consider battier > gay + swift's bloated salary. and i will continue writing huge run-on sentences stating that opinion
Kinda funny how the conversation Jason Quick overheard supposedly had the Daryl Morey talking about Battier don't fit Adelman-- and yet Adelman played Battier a ton of minutes just like Van Gundy did before him. He had a more offensive minded option, too, in Bonzi Wells, and eventually traded him. Also kind of funny how Quick talks about Morey as loud and cocky. He must hide it really well in public. I'm sure they are looking for somone who brings more offensively than Battier does. At the same time, I'm sure they don't want to give up significantly on the defensive side of things to make that happen. Can Battier be traded? Sure. Does that mean they don't value him? No. At the very least they value him more than Outlaw if you believe what Jason Quick sys.
I'm not going to turn this thread into Battier vs Gay, but let me say this, Swift's contract isn't that bloated, Gay probably want the rox target, and teams don't give up a player, and a the 8th pick for the former 6th pick that was on a downward spiral offensively. The reason is clear they over estimated Battiers impact and underestimated Gay's rapid development posssiblities. You know how I know? 2 yrs later, they drafted Donte Green. After 2 yrs of key offensive droughts in playoffs games and the disappearence of your 3rd highest paid player, they make a future pick. To put this in perspective, Gay shot fg and ft%. He got to the line more, and rebounded better. He's 6 yrs younger and 4m cheaper. Now you may be in the court that its easy to put up good numbers on a bad team, but if you've ever played ball or watched a lot of basketball, you will know that the easiest point come from playing with other good players. Kenny Smith always use to say in Sacramento, those were a hard 17ppg, but in houston it was a easy 13ppg. Just looking at Gay's sharp rise in pts and fg% in one season on a crappy team tells you the game is getting easier for him. You give that kind of athelete the kind of structure the Rox have and his upside is thru the roof. Maybe he doesn't score 20ppg, but he would have a easy 17 on this squad. Ask Kobe and he'll tell you that his point were easier this yr or when shaq was there than when he had kwame brown in the post. Its just natural.
Last time I watched basketball, the team that scored the most points won the game so you've pretty much wrecked your own argument. The Rockets lose because Battier struggles to score 10 points and doesn't make it easier for his teammates to score. Rudy Gay, on the other hand, makes it easier for his teammates to score because he draws the double teams. As for the rest, Leebigez, just made the key points so I will just echo his thunder. But, apologizing for derailing the thread, let's get back to the point. Morey has not attained certified GM genius status yet. Hopefully, the Rudy Gay trade will be relegated to a painful learning experience for him. Unfortunately, Rockets fans will suffer through a decade of Rudy Gay stardom.
If Gay over Battier makes it easier for the Grizzlies, than Mike Miller and Gasol would have a better record. They actually got worse and ended up with a fire sale and dumping Gasol for Kwame brown.
Morey's biggest problem is injuries and recovery time. He needs to throw some money at better equipment and staff. If you take a risk on an injured college star that's dropped for knee issues, does your team have the best medical staff to deal with it? What's the deal with half our starting line up missing several games each year? Why does it take so long for them to recover after an injury? How can Detroit and Phoenix keep their players so much healthier than the Rockets?
Fair enough, i'm gonna go to bullets now because responding to all that could get a bit lengthy. - "Swift's contract isn't that bloated" - this is true for many teams, but on a team with two superstars making max and max+ dollars every little bit of cap space is vital. so, on the grizzlies its not a big deal, but on the rockets, its a huge deal. - "You know how I know? 2 yrs later, they drafted Donte Green" - this is unrelated to Gay, honestly. two years ago, the team had very different needs than it does today. if the rockets had never acquired a battier-type player, they likely would have drafted one - see sefolosha plan. - "Gay shot fg and ft%. He got to the line more, and rebounded better. He's 6 yrs younger and 4m cheaper." - what were his minutes, what was his role, what were the expectations, and did he have to do it all within the context of winning team basketball? also, how much longer will he be cheaper than shane? - "its easier to put up numbers on a bad team" - i'm in neither camp on this one. but i do know that the only numbers i care about are Ws and Ls, and with rudy gay i think we have fewer Ws and more Ls over the last couple of years than we do with Battier. stats are only stats. impact is impact. i don't believe that gay has a bigger two-way impact than Battier has. the stats for measuring offensive production are just much more easily generated and compared than the stats for defensive production. if there were a way to measure defensive performance to the same level of sophistication as offensive production, i have no doubt that Battier defensively would measure out better than gay offensively relative to their peers. - finally, the one thing you are forgetting is that battier's weakness (offensive creativity) would never get the attention that you are giving it if the rockets were able to stay even reasonably healthy. without tracy or yao or (gulp) rafer, battier's offensive liabilities come into focus a lot more than they ever would if the team could stay healthy. unless you expected morey to build a team in 2006 around the idea that one or both of his superstars would go missing for long stretches, battier just makes more sense in a healthy starting lineup than gay does. battier is a complimentary player. meaning he does not have skills that are redundant with the others, but fills in the skill gaps. these are my thoughts anyway. i think you guys underestimate how intelligently the rockets have been built. yes, theres a long way to go, and given the injuries it is entirely possible this group will never succeed, but it is a very complete team when all is said and done. not perfect, or close to it, but intelligently built under the cap, and without a glaring weakness.
sweet! I appreciate it. too bad nearly 75% of the responses in this thread are in agreement with my assertion.
You have made valid points but you don't realize that the Grizzlies wanted Rudy Gay badly,we could gotten more out for the 8th pick.Even a future 1st rounder or a Kyle Lowry or a Mo Ager who played well against Golden State could have better than having JL3 . Battier did play with a healthy Yao and Tracy in last year's playoffs. We lost in the 1st round. He was supposed to be our 3rd guy which is honestly unfair since he isn't that kind of a player. I'm not saying he can't be a part of a Championship team since he is a better overall player than Bruce Bowen. We need more talent along with Battier's defense,3 pointers and his hardworking,professional attitude.
for a couple of years we have had the misfortune of lining up against the worst possible matchup in the first round. that is not a referendum on the value of shane battier. the way Utah is structured, from a personnel standpoint, gives them almost every possible advantage in a playoff series against the rockets. we could go down the list, honestly, and at the end of the day, its quite amazing that the rockets have fared as well as they have (in losing efforts nonetheless).
A couple of things: 1. Battier contributed to the fact that Rockets were able to withstand the injuries to Yao and Tracy better than they could in 05/06. Yes, the Rockets added talent last year in Scola, Landry, etc. Yes, Dikembe and Juwan were productive in Yao's absense in 06/07... but Battier providing the consistent contribution was a big reason why the team did better when they had only 1 star than they had back when the Rockets were playing with a Battier-less group. You can survive a big injury (maybe not win it all... but at least give yourslef a chance rather than collapse) if you got smart guys who share the ball and play D. I believe it was either 03/04 or 04/05 that Gasol got injured for a big chunk of time, and the Grizz managed to survive and make playoffs despite Gasol's injury because they had a group who played defense and team ball. Last couple of years in Gizz-land? Loss of Battier and the "youth movement" has caused them to suck with Gasol and suck even worse without.
