My point is only that I think you are both using revisionist history and ignoring a lot of the positives of the moves you disagree with. There are today and were in the 06 draft a lot of high upside, but high downside players. Both at the top of the draft, the middle of the draft, the end of the draft, etc. What if everyone passed on Tyrus Thomas till our pick. He would have clearly been, at that point, the pick - enormous "upside" - and it would have been a mistake. But it would have fit exactly into your philosophy. Hindsight helps...it just does. Beyond the fact that it has never been proven that Morey was the guy behind the Battier trade, it was actually a trade that makes sense. It's easy to say 2 years later you could have had Rudy Gay and Battier sucks. But Battier doesn't suck - he brings a lot to the table (not saying I wouldn't trade him in an instant for the right player...or Rudy Gay himself, but let's not ignore what Battier brings to the team). Scola was a great pickup. Brooks and Landry seem to be solid solid solid late picks. The Bonzi trade was a good one. Bonzi was slightly better than useless. You couldn't count on him for anything. He was a horrible defender, and an even worse FT shooter. Bobby Jackson sucked, too, but at least we do now have a decently sizeable expiring. I'm sure I haven't read your philosophy enough. It sounds like a good one. Pick players with unlimited upside that may be super exciting. I imagine in real life that will get you fired sooner or later. Regardless, it doesn't sound to me like Morey disagrees. Morey looks first at what they think a player will become. Then at upside vs. downside risk. Clearly, had they thought Rudy Gay would become what he would become, that would have played a lot bigger factor. They didn't see the upside or potential that you apparently did...that's fine. Even the really good GM's miss sometimes (Joe Dumars on Darko as another example). I just don't see how anyone can be seriously bashing Morey at this point. He recognizes the team's holes as much as you. Can he do anything about it? Frankly, I'm more optimistic than pessimistic considering the improvements he made over his first REAL year as the GM.
That's a confusing evaluation... Last I checked, most 'younger players with upside' didn't pan out anyway... Morey's evaluation supposedly finds the ones who will. I don't see Landry and Brooks as bad choices - Landry certainly isn't 'short'. You might be right Gater, but it sure doesn't look that way. I'll eat my hat after this years draft/ free agency is finished if I'm wrong, provided you'll do the same?
JayZ- I keep saying that its not about gay. What was wrong with Brewer and his consistent play in college and with his high ceiling cuz of his atheleticism? The guy went from 4.6 to 12 in one season on 56% fg on a 50 win team. Its stuff like that. I would like to see a sense of urgency in this organization. I'm telling u that when mcgrady leaves and they don't replace him with james, this team is lotto bound. I'll be the 1st to admit I'm wrong and take all the abuse anyone wants to give me, but I bet those expiring contracts expire without a major player being added. When the rox are playing playoff type hoops in january because the stregnth of the west, they will be looking for answers. I just hate to waste great coaching and 2 all stars hard work yr after yr. We'll see. Computers can measure toughness and impact plays by players. If they could, computers should draft and sign guys.
This Billups talk seems ludicrous. Of course the Rockets want/need him. But why on earth would Detroit want to trade him? How is that in their best interest? Do they have some other terrific point guard waiting in the wings? Is his contract up and he's not interested in resigning? Am I missing something?
leebigeez- I didn't say that there weren't talented players that could eventually become rotational players in this league, but I just pointed out that Morey would rather take a player he thinks will be ready as soon as possible over someone who could potentially be a good player. The players you mentioned contributed very early and I'm sure Morey would have considered them. Yao and Tmac aren't young anymore, and we should look at guys that can contribute in 1-3 years. We can't afford waiting more than 3 years for a player to develop.
What does he mean by what the market thinks and how does that influence his decision making process? I know someone answered this question earlier but I'm still not sure what it means.
If the seeming consensus is that a guy is a mid 2nd rounder, but Morey & co. grade him as a mid 1st rounder, Morey will factor that in. In other words, if there's a guy we particularly like that isn't expected to go for a few slots, we may trade down and pick him at a "better value." Conversely, if there's a guy who the market says is a mid 1st rounder, but our staff thinks is a lotto type talent, expect the Rockets to aggressively pursue a pick to grab that player. It's all about exploiting discrepancies between the Rockets' evaluation and the rest of the league.
I think that's what they tried to do with Rudy Fernandez and Brandon Roy, but Kevin Pritchard, the Portland GM, ****-blocked Morey both times.
Why would u ever worry about what other teams thought about a guy as long as he's a good player? Thats why we have seen really good players taken later in the 1st rd because evryone has a different grade on players.
The answer is you don't worry about it; you exploit it. Let's pose a hypothetical -- The year is 2001. You have the 10th overall pick in the draft, and this is the year Tony Parker is coming out. Because he hasn't been widely scouted, most people grade him towards the end of the first round. In fact, you know that the only other team with an eye on him is the Spurs. Why would you draft him with the 10th pick, if you knew could get him in the late 20s? If you draft Tony Parker with the 10th pick, it certainly is a home run. But if you traded down to say #27 (or just acquired another pick), and picked him just ahead of the Spurs, it would be even better value. Now, it's a dangerous game to play since you don't know everyone else's hand, but you get the idea. Carl Herrera -- Agreed. And while some like to blame Van Gundy for winning a "meaningless" game, I blame it on Danny Ainge -- he traded the Blazers that pick in the first place for Sebastian Telfair!
exactly. look at what the heat are doing this year. they probably have mayo ranked ahead of beasley, but the market says beasley is 1 or 2 and mayo is more like 3-7. so if riley wants mayo, the heat will still select beasley #2 (if rose isn't there) and trade down to whoever drafts mayo. also, i feel like the rockets did this with brooks/landry last year. they probably were going to take landry with their first pick, but when a guy they thought should've gone higher (brooks) was there they took him. landry slipped into the second round and the rockets aquired another pick in order to get landry who is now a steal in that draft position.
Morey has clearly stated on more than one occassion what this team needs and i think we all agree with him that we need more offensive talent around Yao and T-Mac. I trust that Morey (and Les) will be looking to make that happen this summer. I trust the pros to do their jobs with the draft, free agency, and our roster. He brought in good talent last year and I think he will continue to do that. He may have to wait until the trade deadline, but so be it if that's what it takes for us to get the most value for our expiring contracts. I think the draft will be very interesting this year after the first 4 or 5 picks. It is so wide open this year.
Unlike the nfl, there ist value when u draft 2 rds. Brooks went where he did because teams factored in his size. Landry went were he did because of injuries. Theres a reason why guys go where they go. U can't call other gms ask what they think about certain players. No one can sell me that landry is going to be boozer. I mean Boozer was 17 and 11 by his 2nd season. If he do that and pushes scola to the bench, then i'll call it a steal. Otherwise it was just a solid pick. Brooks the same. If he can't unseat rafer, then it just solid. When u get all star or near all star talent in the late 20's or 2nd rd, then that's a steal. I think in a sport like basketball where height carries weight and for the rox to not to even factor that in is a bigtime mistake. Unlike baseball, height does matter. When the biggest player in the league says the rox need to get bigger, then that says something to me. No size behind the 2/3, and no long players at the 4 really haunts this team against bigger, longer squads. I guess we've beaten this to a pulp, but I just see trouble for this team when tracy misses his standard 10 games and yao is playing tired. It took a historic streak for the rox to get in the playoffs last yr. U can't expect something like that again in the even tougher west.
I don't know how you start a new topic, but since I did not see anything regarding this on the site..........thought I would copy and paste it for everyone to read. NBA OFFICIAL DONAGHY TALKS ABOUT "FIXED" GAMES.....ROCKETS AND MAVS INCLUDED. This article came from Drudge Report today. LOS ANGELES -- Was Game 3 of the 2008 NBA Finals held at the scene of a crime? Disgraced ex-referee Tim Donaghy alleged as much Tuesday in a filing made by his attorney in U.S. District Court in New York, saying the highly controversial Game 6 of the Lakers-Kings playoff series in 2002 was impacted by the actions of two of the three referees who worked the game. NBA commissioner David Stern vehemently denied the allegations, saying they are the desperate act of a convicted felon. He also disclosed that the league has already briefed members of the U.S. Congress on certain facets of the Donaghy investigation. "We welcome scrutiny here. This is something that should be scrutinized," said Stern, who called Donaghy a "singing, cooperating witness" and repeatedly referred to him as a felon as he spoke with reporters for more than eight minutes near the loading dock of the Staples Center as he arrived for Game 3 of the Finals. The allegations are some of the strongest ever made against the NBA, coming at a time when the officiating of this year's Finals between the Celtics and Lakers has come under heavy scrutiny. In the letter submitted by Donaghy's attorney, the following "manipulation" is alleged: What They're Saying • Disgraced former NBA ref Tim Donaghy made explosive charges against the league in response to a demand from the NBA that he pay $1 million in restitution. What does it all mean? ESPN.com's Lester Munson explains. Q&A • Tim Donaghy's allegations of improprieties by officials have besmirched what had been a perfect season in the NBA, writes Stephen A. Smith. Story "Referees A, F and G were officiating a playoff series between Teams 5 and 6 in May of 2002. It was the sixth game of a seven-game series, and a Team 5 victory that night would have ended the series. However, Tim learned from Referee A that Referees A and F wanted to extend the series to seven games. Tim knew referees A and F to be "company men," always acting in the interest of the NBA, and that night, it was in the NBA's interest to add another game to the series. Referees A and F heavily favored Team 6. Personal fouls [resulting in obviously injured players] were ignored even when they occurred in full view of the referees. Conversely, the referees called made-up fouls on Team 5 in order to give additional free throw opportunities for Team 6. Their foul-calling also led to the ejection of two Team 5 players. The referees' favoring of Team 6 led to that team's victory that night, and Team 6 came back from behind to win that series." Although no teams are specifically named, it is not hard to deduce the game in question. The Lakers-Kings series was the only one that postseason that went seven games, and the officiating in Game 6 was so questionable that consumer advocate and former presidential candidate Ralph Nader called for a formal investigation. The Lakers attempted 40 free throws to the Kings' 25 in that game, and Los Angeles made 21-of-27 from the line while Sacramento converted 7-of-9 in the fourth quarter alone. In addition, a foul was called against Mike Bibby of the Kings after he was shoved and elbowed by Kobe Bryant, denying the Kings an opportunity to try for a tying basket. Also in that game, Kings centers Vlade Divac and Scot Pollard fouled out, and Kings coach Rick Adelman was highly critical of the officiating afterward. "My first thought [upon hearing Donaghy's allegation] was: I knew it," Pollard said Tuesday night. "I'm not going to say there was a conspiracy. I just think something wasn't right. It was unfair. We didn't have a chance to win that game." The Lakers went on to win the 2002 NBA championship. The letter apparently comes in response to the NBA's claim that Donaghy pay $1 million in restitution to cover the cost of the league's private investigation. Donaghy's legal team is trying to demonstrate his cooperation with a federal government investigation before he is sentenced on July 14 on felony charges of taking cash payoffs from gamblers and betting on games himself. The Game In Question Shaquille O'Neal scored 41 points and pulled down 17 rebounds as the Lakers forced a Game 7 in the 2002 Western Conference finals. Recap The document referenced other alleged improprieties that Donaghy disclosed to federal law enforcement officials. Among them: • "Tim gave information on how top executives of the NBA sought to manipulate games using referees to boost ticket sales and television ratings," the letter reads. "He also described how nepotism played a far greater role than qualifications in a number of referee hirings." • "Tim explained the league officials would tell referees that they should withhold calling technical fouls on certain star players because doing so would hurt ticket sales and television ratings," the letter adds. "As an example, Tim explained how there were times when a referee supervisor would tell referees that NBA Executive X did not want them to call technical fouls on star players or remove them from the game. In January 2000, Referee D went against these instructions and elected a star player in the first quarter of the game. Referee D later was privately reprimanded by the league for that ejection." • In addition to game-altering allegations, Donaghy's letter claims that many officials carry on "relationships" with team executives, coaches and players that violate their NBA contracts. For example, it said, referees broke NBA rules by hitting up players for autographs, socializing with coaches and accepting meals and merchandise from teams. "Tim described one referee's use of a team's practice facility to exercise and another's frequent tennis matches with a team's coach," the letter says. • The letter also alleges that during a 2005 Rockets-Mavericks playoff series, "Team 3 lost the first two games in the series and Team 3's Owner complained to NBA officials. Team 3's Owner alleged that referees were letting a Team 4 player get away with illegal screens. NBA Executive Y told Referee Supervisor Z that the referees for that game were to enforce the screening rules strictly against that Team 4 player. Referee Supervisor Z informed the referees about his instructions. As an alternate referee for that game, Tim also received these instructions." Mavs owner Mark Cuban did in fact complain after his team lost the first two games of the series, and Dallas went on to beat Houston in seven games. Jeff Van Gundy, then the coach of the Rockets, said that an NBA official had told him about the league's plan to closely monitor moving screens by Yao Ming, and Van Gundy was ultimately fined $100,000 for his comments regarding the situation. Van Gundy later backed off his comments. Documents • Tim Donaghy, right, claims that other referees were involved in altering NBA games. Read PDF • The Donaghy legal team addresses the NBA's claim that he must pay $1 million restitution. Read PDF During halftime of the Lakers-Celtics game on Tuesday, Van Gundy, a commentator for the game, said that while he still thinks Yao was unfairly targeted, he does not lend any credibility to what Donaghy has to say. Stern said he had not yet read the letter filed on Donaghy's behalf, but that portions of it had been read to him. "My reaction to Donaghy's lawyer are that clearly as the date of sentencing gets closer, and the things that he's thrown against the wall haven't stuck, he's rehashing a variety of things that have been given to the U.S. Attorney and the FBI, fully investigated, and are baseless," Stern said. "We have been asked to cooperate for the last year by providing people and answering questions, and we've done that. And our understanding is that the investigation is just about wrapped up waiting for the sentencing of Mr. Donaghy, and as he continues desperately to somehow get out of the fact that he is subject to a longer sentence possibly than his co-conspirators, there are this continuing flow of allegations from, don't forget, an admitted felon. So they're baseless." Also Tuesday, Lakers coach Phil Jackson was asked about the allegations regarding Game 6 of the 2002 series against Sacramento. "Was that after the fifth game, after we had the game stolen away from us after a bad call out of bounds and gave the ball back to Sacramento and they made a 3-point shot?" he said. "There's a lot of things going on in these games and they're suspicious, but I don't want to throw it back to there." Jackson also was asked if he agreed with the notion that there were officials that were "NBA company men" who were doing this for the sake of ratings. "Only us basketball coaches think that," Jackson said. "Nobody else can go to that extreme. They referee what they see in front of them. You know, a lot of things have happened in the course of the Tim Donaghy disposition. I think we have to weigh it as it comes out, and we all think that probably referees should be under a separate entity than the NBA entirely. I mean, that's what we'd like to see probably in the NBA. It would just be separate and apart from it. But I don't think that's going to happen." Lamell McMorris, head of the NBA referees union, also issued a statement: "Tim Donaghy has had honesty and credibility issues from the get-go," the statement reads. "He is a convicted felon who has not yet been sentenced for the criminal conduct he has already admitted to. He may be willing to say anything to help his cause and he may believe these most recent allegations will help his agenda. I'm not aware of any improper conduct by any current NBA referee in the playoffs six years ago or any conspiracy by the NBA to affect the outcome of any game then or now. Frankly we're tired of Tim Donaghy's cat and mouse games." Donaghy's letter said that in the first of several meetings with prosecutors and the FBI in New York in 2007, he named names. He faces up to 33 months in prison. Donaghy's attorney and federal prosecutors declined to comment to The Associated Press on Tuesday. Chris Sheridan covers the NBA for ESPN Insider. To e-mail Chris, click here. Information from The Associated Press was used in this report.
I understand its not about Gay, but he's the example to go off. There's nothing wrong with Ronnie Brewer - I liked him, too - but for every Ronnie Brewer there's someone similar that doesn't pan out. Plus we had no chance to get a Ronnie Brewer...the Battier trade made more sense. Whatever the case, it just sounds like your complaining for the sake of it, as far as Morey goes, to the extent that your predicting what he's going to do and what's going to happen. Bashing JVG or CD for lack of playoff success or poor drafting after the fact is one thing - and I did my fair share - but let's wait on calling Morey too safe and a failure until it happens (and hopefully it won't). Especially since so far his batting average seems to be pretty good.
Okay, once and for all. The Rockets never wanted Rudy Gay..ever. The Rockets drafted Rudy Gay with the express intent on trading him to Memphis. Memphis wanted Rudy Gay, Houston did not. Houston wanted Brandon Roy and if he would have fallen to Houston's pick, they would have drafted him and kept him. The rockets had a deal in place with Memphis to draft Rudy if he fell to them and trade him. If Rudy would have been taken before the Rockets got to him, they would have drafted Roy or someone else and kept the pick. It's that simple.
