The league is full of talented players who don't work hard. Teams sign lazy players and whole they change. Championship teams know that hard work+talent=rings, You have to have the best player with a combination of hard work and talent. You can't have a very talented player, that's lazy. Those guys are the draft busts like Swift drafted #2 in the lottery. Duncan isn't as athletic or strong as Hakeem, but he's a very hard worker and talented. I would count on Duncan over Rasheed to win multiple rings. If you switch out Rasheed for Duncan on the Spurs, they wouldn't have won as many rings. The Spurs team has players that aren't very talented players but extremly passionate and hardworking, but the sum of their talent and hard work made them shine. Talented but not the hardest workers Allen Iverson(practice? practice? we talking about practice?, more talented than Parker, but lazy) Tracy McGrady(Used to be compared to Kobe talent-wise but has a rep of being lazy) Baron Davis(hired his own personal trainer(yes man), so he can skip out on team workouts) Derrick Coleman Shawn Kemp Chris Weber Stephen Marbury Vince Carter(Used to be compared as the next Kobe/Jordan) Shaq(Up and down, no hard work, see Miami after winning his ring) Talented and hard working Tony Parker Kobe Bryant Tim Duncan Manu Ginobili(less talented than T-Mac, but better combination of hard work and talent) Hakeem Shaq(Up and down, wins championships when he works hard, see Miami's 1st 2 years and Lakers)
Interesting question is whether having more talent is more important than a less talented player but is harder worker. Ginobili(never been a scoring champ or and not considered as talented as Kobe or Jordan) or T-Mac(2 x NBA scoring champ, compared to Kobe and Jordan during when he was with Orlando)? Tony Parker(multiple rings but has not been as dominant as AI) or Allen Iverson(4x scoring champ, but doesn't like practice)?
There's no need to compare the two aspects, because you can just look at the total package and see the production. I guess talent comes into play if you're trying to find young players with upside. But if you're looking at established players or past production, there's no need to discern the two. I will say that ALL stars work their butts off. There's no way Iverson doesn't work hard on his game, even if he spout that stuff about practice. The guy definitely put in tons of effort and dedication. He probably just want some time off between games.
Let's look at the last 15 years. Teams that have won with less talent vs rest of the league: Rockets Pistons Miami Heat(Spurs, Lakers, Jazz, Mavs were comparable or better at most positions) There have been teams have talent and hard work and won: Spurs Lakers Boston Celtics(stacked) Teams with lots of talent but don't work hard enough and have won: none Teams with lots of talent and never win the ring: Dallas Mavericks Phoenix Suns Portland Trailblazers Utah Jazz It's about the total package hardwork and talent beats more talent(1994-95 Rockets, Spurs/Lakers vs Phoenix/Dallas). Mark Cuban was the poster child having extremely talented teams and luxury tax level payrolls, but losing the championship every year. Suns, Trailblazers, Jazz and Mavericks are very talented, but they can't seem to get a ring like less talented teams like Hakeem's Rockets, Miami Heat, Detroit Pistons. I don't see Phoenix or Mavericks winning in the near future, until the improve the total package(hard work and talent), instead of only acquiring talent or especially ill-fitting pieces like Shaq. Portland is starting to get better, because their talent is working harder, still too lazy on defense for now.
I don't think you can put the Rockets in the category of two championship teams. By any objective measure, the Mavericks and Suns have had a better decade than the Rockets.
He said the last 15 years, though -- the Rox won 2 championships in that span and the Mavs and Suns have a combined zero. This debate about talent vs. hard work misses the point. DM was just saying that working and/or playing hard is a factor that can be quantified and considered, along with all the other factors such as talent, when a team is trying to determine the overall value of the player. It would be interesting to know whether, with everything else being equal, Morey would take the guy whose hard-work numbers are higher than the guy whose talent numbers are higher.
Thank you for the recap,DD. I wouldn't be able to read/listen to much of this if it weren't for posters like you and other vets. I need to move to Houston already. Arizona is just too far away. As for the interview, I think that Tracy will be with us for quite awhile, depending on how he comes back. I think he may still be in the Rockets' long term plans. Really. Not for the max-salary...but he might be here. I'm excited for the season either way. Red Nation baby.
I still think a lot of you are confusing what i'm saying. Playing hard isn't a skill, being a hard worker is. Playing hard is a given and something you're supposed to do, working hard is work ethic related and is the difference between average to good to great. The manu compariison to tracy is crazy. Manu and parker has had the luxury of playing with the best pf of all time. Kobe plays harder now than he did with shaq because he has to. Not so much now, but when he had kwame brown and chris mihm, he had to exert more energy to help the team just compete. Topfive or whoever brought it up, allen iverson led a team to the finals by himself. To say iverson don't or didn't play hard is crazy. To say a guy 6ft 160lbs that can take the punishment and absorb it and keep playing is not a hard worker is also crazy. You don't think the work in his physical conditioning is great? You don't think his strength is great. Some of those guys that yall are mentioning have menta or teamwork issues. If you could have zach randolph without the the other stuff, you take randolph over scola. Scola is a better character guy which has a part in winning to, but just from production and ability, scola can't hold zachs jock and we've seen him torch scola,hayes,and landry. Some coaches don't mind the headache associated with some of these talented players and som don't want those guys. It takes the right kind of coach that can manage personalities. Phil Jackson to me is the best personality manager in the history of the nba. He has a unique gift and that's part of the reason why he can have a team full of different personalites and still win. Durvasa, I never was a fan of miles. I never understood the hype about a guy that wasn't a 3 or 4 and after his 4th year never closed holes up in his game.
He had to use 15 yrs to prove his lame point. I'm not that high on phoenix or the mavs, but the have had a lot more success in this decade by a long shot. In the case of dallas, they made it to the finals . Looking in the next 3 yrs, its a good chance they will be more of a factor again, especially dallas. So topfive and better than ever can talk or quantify all they want,I will take the mavs roster over the rockets roster.
I could see that happening if Luis is given a lot of open jumpshots. If he posts up too much, buckets may be more difficult to get. I think a lot will depend on spacing and if AB penetrates enough. Over-dribbling could be a concern.
That's very possible. But in my opinion, a lot of that will depend on McGrady. Because in the past he was getting a lot of wide open shots because of Yao and McGrady. So if McGrady comes back to his All Star form which seems more likely now, I do belive Scola will be a legit 20 ppg scorer. He will be still getting those shots off of the double teams and he will get more touches on the post where he is effective as well. But if McGrady comes back and plays like a shadow of his former self than it may be difficult for him to score that much because the defense will collapse on him and Aaron.
I went back 15 years, because my dad didn't like basketball and we only had 1 tv and I had no car. I didn't get to watch basketball until college.
You have misunderstood what was said. The Mavericks, Suns, and Jazz(talent teams, less hard working) won't beat talent and hard work(Spurs, Lakers, and Celtics). As I said it's the total package, you can't just have extreme talent but work less hard or extreme hard work4rs and no talent. I'll bet you the total package teams will another one in the next 3 years. I doubt the talent teams with less hardworkers will win one in the next 3 years, until show more effort on defense or in the Jazz's case more hustle and effort.
Is it bad not to know the starting lineup of NBA playoff teams before 1994? I couldn't tell you who were the franchise players on the Spurs and Mavericks before 1994. My best guess is Michael Finley for the Mavericks and David Robinson for the Spurs, but I can't name anybody else. When I went to UH in 1994, there would be UH Cougar fans in the gameroom watching Rockets games by the bowling alley. Is that still there? The NBA games weren't exciting to me at first, but it grew on me. I still didn't watch it all that regularly, but I knew David Robinson, Shaq and Patrick Ewing. The games against major centers were always hyped up, so I tried to catch those in the gameroom.
Better Than Ever, just for arguments sake, the mavs beat the spurs in a game 7 in san antonio the year they went to the final and they smoked them last yr in the first rd. Say what you will about the mavs, but they have shown they can beat the spurs in th playoffs. If you can tell me the rox have a better chance at a title than the mavs, then you know a secret nobody else knows. If you look at players in their prime especially the star player, dirk is a lot better off and probably higher on the pole than yao or mcgrady. Combine that with howard,kidd,marion,and terry, carisle is a ok coach , and they have a good team.
