More Than 500,000 Rally in L.A. for Immigrants' Rights

As I've asked you repeatedly before though do you also support draconian enforcement of things like speeding? I mean its more likely that you will kill someone speeding than an illegal will by mowing someone's lawn.

 

Immigrants in the past also faced many barriers too not unlike today. There have often been strong nativists tendencies in US history and while we've had huge waves of immigrants those immigrants weren't welcomed with open arms. The same arguments about immigrants coming in and taking jobs, depressing wages, not speaking English and even as a threat to national security were applied to the waves of immigrants from Ireland, Italy and Eastern Europe. Also what is forgotten is that many of those immigrants didn't all come through an orderly and completely legal process and many of them entered the US illegally too.

 

Sishir, do you have info to back up your statement that, "...the waves of immigrants from Ireland, Italy and Eastern Europe. Also what is forgotten is that many of those immigrants didn't all come through an orderly and completely legal process and many of them entered the US illegally too."...?

We toured Ellis Island, as I mentioned earlier, back in June, and that was not the way those mass immigrations were portrayed at all. The vast majority scraped their money together to travel in steerage, went through the ordeal at Ellis (which was why I mentioned them being "poked and prodded." It was an ordeal, most definitely. I can't believe someone morphed that into, "are you trying to say Mexicans carry diseases????"), and came into the United States legally. In that regard, it's not an accurate comparison at all. The overwhelming majority of Americans of European decent, and those from countries like India, for example, came here legally. In Texas, large numbers of Latinos are descended from, however distantly today, Texans who fought for independence... Texans who happened to be settlers from Mexico, and before, when Mexico was a Spanish colony. Go to the San Jacinto monument, where one of my ancestor's name is chiseled, and look at how many were there.

The idea that Texas was a "land grab" from Mexico by the United States is, in my opinion, ludicrous. One can make that statement about what came from the Mexican War, certainly, but not as it pertains to Texas, which was an independent country for about 10 years, recognized by France and Great Britain, and established by treaty with Mexico upon Santa Anna's defeat. I'll also add that the murderous b*stard was lucky he wasn't strung up from that tree in the paintings showing his surrender to Sam Houston, and the Texian Army, which had been greatly outnumbered, and fought with a ferocity worthy of comparison to any other battle ever fought. A ferocity driven by the slaughter of hundreds of Texian soldiers who had surrendered, expecting treatment under the articles of war, and were murdered instead. An act which disgusted and horrified many of the officers serving under Santa Anna, based on letters written home at the time.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

^ Deckard;

Yes I toured Ellis Island a few years ago myself and the info regarding that not all immigrants came through legally was from what I saw there. The descriptions that they had was that it was a very chaotic process at the height of the waves of immigration and many people came in on wrong names or weren't fully processed and that there was graft, subterfuge and bureaucratic incompetence that allowed many to come through under the radar.

As for the rest of your post I presume that wasn't directed at me since I never mentioned anything about Mexicans carrying diseases or Texas being a land grab.

 

Nope, the second part wasn't directed at you, Sishir. I've read some posts lately, here and there, referring to the US grabbing all the former territory from Mexico, including a couple of references to Texas, and I just felt like having a rant.

I saw that part you refer to at Ellis Island as well, but my take was that the numbers were a definite minority. There is no question that false names were used in some cases. Far more common was the "rape" of the immigrant's original name by the immigration official writing it down, and not getting the spelling write. That happened a lot, and wasn't the fault, of course, of the immigrant it happened to. And there were those who deliberately falsified their names and, in some cases, countries of origin, but relative to the numbers involved, I believe it to be a small percentage of the total.

I just don't think there is a legitimate comparison between those waves of millions of immigrants, and their legality, and the millions of illegal immigrants here from Mexico. That was my point, and I think it's true. That's not a judgement on my part about whether it's good, or bad, that millions of people from Mexico are here illegally. I have definite mixed feelings about the subject.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

I do not accept your comparison
so I cannot answer your question

to me it would be like comparing killing a fly
to killing a person

Rocket RIver

 

Circulating on the Net:

"If you are ready for the adventure of a lifetime, TRY THIS:

Enter Mexico illegally. Never mind immigration quotas, visas, international law, or any of that nonsense.

Once there, demand that the local government provide free medical care for you and your entire family.

Demand bilingual nurses and doctors.

Demand free bilingual local government forms, bulletins, etc. Procreate abundantly.

Deflect any criticism of this allegedly irresponsible reproductive behavior with, "It is a cultural U.S.A. thing. You would not understand, pal."

Keep your American identity strong. Fly Old Glory from your rooftop, or proudly display it in your front window or on your car bumper.

Speak only English at home and in public and insist that your children do likewise.

Demand classes on American culture in the Mexican school system.

Demand a local Mexican driver license. This will afford other legal rights and will go far to legitimize your unauthorized, illegal, presence in Mexico

Drive around with no liability insurance and ignore local traffic laws.

Insist that local Mexican law enforcement teach English to all its officers.

Good luck! You'll be demanding for the rest of time or soon be dead. Because it will never happen It will not happen in Mexico or any other country in the world except right here in the United States, Land of the naive and stupid, idiotic politically correct politicians."

 

"Give me your well-rested, your wealthy,
Your elite few yearning to spend free,
The most fortunate of your hotel-dotted shore.
Send these, the ones with big mansions and expendable income to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door - Just make sure you fill out the proper paperwork"​

 

Does anyone know of the legalization process back in the mid 1800's? I don't think the Govermnent had the effort to turn back any boats filled with non-threatening looking people. With all the cheap labor and revolutions elsewhere, random amnesty policies seemed pretty handy, if not unpopular.

 

The immigration of 'anglos' of the 18 and 1900's isn't the same apple as the immigration of hispanics in the 2000's. First there was a near virgin continent available for expansion with a current population well under 100 million people.
There was certainly an environmental impact but you couldn't say it approached a strain on the carrying capacity of the land, Secondly, since the immigramts were seperated from their objective by an ocean there was a limit on the rate of influx . Ships simply couldn't carry enough people to overwhelm the land. The entire popluation of central America could simply walk into the United States now and as much as I believe in the inititiative of people to make a better life for themselves, the United States simply cannot provide food, housing, medical care, clean air and clean water for an unlimited number of people.

I guess even that is tact a bit selfish though since whatever services we can provide would be better than what the people there are getting now and I'm just saying I don't want my own quality of life to decline. I just don't want to end up eating Soylent Green and I don't see the Pope helping stem the explosion of poor people on this continent.

 

So in other words its acceptable to allow people to break the law in your opinion and not in others and that your argument that churches and doctors should be punished for aiding illegals isn't that the law shouldn't be flouted but that illegals shouldn't be helped.

 

I didn't mean to state that a majority of Ellis Island immigrants came here illegally but that many did. Considering the huge numbers if even 5% of Ellis Island immigrants came here illegally that would still represent 100 of 1000 of people. As a side note due to the exclusion laws many of the Chinese immigrants that came to the US during the exclusion laws were also illegal since no Chinese could come here unless they were the close relative of one already here. To get around this people used the practice of "Paper Son" where someone would pretend to be the son of an immigrant already there.

Anyway my point is that illegal immigration has always been here in America. Ignoring the law of supply and demand that will drive cheap labor to fill in a market paying relatively high wages for a moment, its undeniable that this country is a country of immigrants both legal and illegal.

 

And what is the alternative. Fareed Zakaria said it best when he said that its amazing that we're actually looking to model European immigration policy after all the ridiculous riots and gheto-like conditions for immigrants created by a policy of hysteria and xenophobia.

Going all out on border control has a larger effect than simply attempting to choke off illegal immigration. It signals that we have succumbed to the irrational fear and hysteria that Europe fell to years ago. In France, they dont even count guest workers in their population statistics because they are so obsessed with only being French. In the process, those that fail to conform to the ridiculous cultural standards of Europe are cast out into isolated communities that are shunned by the rest of society. The Arab race riots in France shouldve been a wake up call. Those weren't triggered by Islamic fundamentalism but rather by the fact that they were just cast off by France due to xenophobic policy and an irrational desire to maintain a homogenous identity.

Look illegal immigration has provided a pool of labor that has helped businesses across the country but even beyond that it signals that we are at least a little more tolerant of our identity and of immigrants. Its a remnant of the past when America let in immigrants from all over the world with virtually no qualms. "legal immigration" through places like Ellis Island might as well be called amnesty because there were no requirements. The only rule was that you had to get there. A guest worker program may be the only solution for now to this problem and I hope it gets through. But excessive nationalistic policies that turn America into a walled fortress are not only ridiculous but dangerous as well.

Anyway I'm done with my rant

 

Aren't there legal immigrants
And illegal immigrants

Aren't there laws in place?

Are the laws bad?

Why is this all an issue (I haven't read the thread or the media stuff)?

 

or it would be like comparing someone breaking into your house to rob you (or "earn money" as you put it) with someone crossing the border illegally to find work.

not really a valid comparison, is it?

jo mama

 

No joke!

My grandfather was born in Mexico, I am not sure how he got to Galveston, TX; guess I need to go check the family tree.

I prefer WDJD.

Laws were made to be...

nevermind.

 

hiding and helping the evade the law yes
feeding caring etc no

So basically. . basically enforce all laws equally
or none at all

Since People jaywalk. . . we should allow people to break other laws
So . . since people jaywalk .. . why not allow people to just do whatever

I see you point now

Rocket River

 

break in a house
Break in a Country

Rocket River