Obviously I'm not talking about writing to the administration. I'm talking about supporting our government in helping democratize a nation, which I think we all agree is a good thing, regardless of our feelings about the war or administration. So now you are trying to discredit me by accusing me of thinking Iraqis are stupid? No, I don't think they are stupid, but they will probably need some help and guidance. The last time, the US was not interested in building a democracy. I think this adminstration and you would agree that it was a mistake. Will this time be any better? I don't know, but we should try. We did it in Japan. It was a different situation, but I think it is possible.
Oh, I get it. When people are lining the streets, cheering U.S. troops, that is not representative of the Iraqi people- according to the lefties. but....... When a Muslim cleric whips his followers into a frenzy, the lefties point to this mob as the true people's voice of Iraq. LOL, the silent majority in Iraq wants us to help them install a secular, Democratic government. How do I know this? IT IS HUMAN NATURE. You self loathing Americans are a real hoot.
The people of Iraq have a right to self determination and self rule, even if we don't like the way they impliment it. That's what freedom is all about. Do we really want to give them freedom, or do we actually want a colony with a puppet govt? Just because there are some fundimentalists it doesn't mean that they would win all elections. This would especially be true if there were a strong parliment in place, that was representative of various groups interested in governing, and elected. A system of checks and balances might also help prevent one group from becoming a dictatorship. I think the first the thing the U.S. should do is nullify all the contracts they've handed out, share our experience with the best ways to have a truly representitive govt., keep our troops their only to keep the peace and for security, and let the Iraqis run the show. That would be really doing what the president said he would... helping the Iraqis have liberty. Surely they would make mistakes. The U.S. did. Remember at the start of our democracy some races weren't even considered a whole human being. Mistakes will be made no doubt, but we have to be willing to share our experience and then let them learn from their mistakes. If they want more help, they can ask for it.
Well, I think it would be incredibly stupid to just leave Iraq now and give them a taste of the strict definition of "freedom." Any group of people would struggle after a government is toppled and they have not much infrastucture and rule of law to live by. They need some guidance and leadership, and that is nothing to be ashamed of. If they are a stronger democracy in 10 years, then it will be a good thing. Macbeth, it is sad that you eschew critical thinking and start calling me names like "arrogant" and "jingoistic." I am neither. I simply recognize that the Iraqis have been oprressed for a long time and will need help. If we leave now, just like the last time, I fear another dictatorship will rise up. Leaving them now is not a solution supported by any except the most hardened opponents of America.
Not only aren't they really free if we make them choose democracy, they aren't democratic. A good thing by our standards...which may not be theirs...which means that we are forcing it on them...which isn't a good thing, no matter how you look at it. Dictator....n..."One who dictates; one who rules with absolute authority and supreme governmental jurisdiction; unanswerable authority of a region irrespective of the will of it's people..." In that you are advocating doing just that, imposing our authority over a people irrespective of thier will, we need hardly fear them choosing another dictator; we have already done that for them.
The last thing Bush or anyone else wants is a colony over there. They want to be out of Iraq as soon as is feasible. I think you offer a good solution, but it is also risky. Personally, I would opt for tighter control in the short term to make sure no extreme leaders show up and throw the country back into the tyranny it just left. If the Iraqis are ready to govern themselves now, that would be best. But I'm not sure they are yet.
If the majority, silent or otherwise, wants a secular govt. then let's give the IRAQIS the options, and let them choose. Cutting Islamists out of the picture from the start isn't giving the Iraqis the choice or freedom. Furthermore, it will lead to alienation, frustration, and probably make the country less secure and stable in the future. I was happy that some Iraqis were cheering our troops, and I was really happy for those troops that got to experience that. It had to be good for them to get that kind of support. But there are also others who don't want the U.S. to determine their govt. for them, and want the U.S. out of the decision making. It's hard to blame them for wanting to determine their own future, and wanting to have the freedom to do so. IT IS HUMAN NATURE.
Okay Macbeth, I hear your opinion. I think it is way off- base, shared by no leader, Democratic or Republican. I don't think we should just leave them now.
So far Afghanistan has fared well with the interim leadership we have provided for those people. This same rhetoric was used when democracy was established in Afghanistan and again the liberals and naysayers were wrong. Just as they said people weren't going to greet the soldiers with jubilation and excitment. But of course, according to the liberals Saddam accommodates Iraq just nicely.
I agree with your post completely. Our country is planning to help set up a transitional government, and then allow the Iraqis self-determination. This effort will take time. The criticisms in this thread are really just more cheap shots against the Bush administration. Did anybody really think we would invade, repair the Iraqi infrastructure, help set up elections, and leave in three weeks?
Actually I have to defend liberals here. I think most liberals supported a concerted nation- building effort in Afghanistan. A few liberals thought we were in Afghanistan to colonize it and thought we should have left ASAP, which seems to be Macbeth's view.
Which liberal says that Saddam accomodates Iraq nicely? Nonone has said that. What some have said is that they opposed this war, in the way it was carried out. That does not mean that they liked Saddam. We aren't invading Cuba, but that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't want to invade Cuba likes Castro. I'm tired of one side saying what the other actually believes. Let's let each side say what they believe, and then argue the merits of theirs vs. the other sides. As a liberal, I don't need you telling me what I think of Saddam.
I have met people before who I suspected equated their opinion with fact...if pushed, I would even have to say that I believe there are a few posters in here who do the same thing on occasion...but I have never, in my entire life, excluding children, ever met a person who believes that their opinion equals fact as consistently, nor as proudly and openly as does johnheath. I honestly do not think he sees the distinction.
Perhaps I should had referred to the fringe as a radical left base because you are right in some respects. I am being unfair to some.
Yep, unfortunately I wonder if the maintstream left will ever put them in their place. Seems like they fringe left is a lot stronger than the fringe right.
I think we had the right initial intentions in Afghanistan but it remains to be seen whether we have the stomach for the follow through. We still only *control* Kabul, Kandahar, and select cities the US military happens to be passing through or has a base. Now that NATO is taking over from us, we can spread the credit/blame around, or perhaps they can try to expand the mission to the entire country. http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?...Region=Central_Asia&SelectCountry=AFGHANISTAN
Which part of my opinion bothers you? Do you disagree that people want to be free? Do you think that a culturally diverse Iraq, with Kurds, Shiite Muslims, Sunni Muslims, and Christians want one religion to dominate the government? Your moral relevance, in my opinion, does not allow you to determine what is right, and what is wrong. Until you lose your arrogant attitudes, and find some core convictions, you will never be able to assess the morality of any situation.
You're joking right? Much of Bush's foreign and internal policy is straight from the fringe right, William Kristol, and the Weekly Standard. We'll won't see a policy enacted straight out of The Nation for fifty years.
It's just pure comedy. Someone should make a sitcom. The fringe left is more powerful than the fringe right! LOL This while the fringe right determines government policy and Right Fringe News tries to steer the country so far right that socialism is now in the middle. Classic...
Don't you mean you're being ufair to most? If the religious zealots and neocons who have Bush's ear are the mainstream as opposed to the fringe, then I'm scared. Honestly though, the fringe left are wacky protesters who usually don't cause any harm except for lately, they don't seem so powerful to me. The fringe right includes the no tax militia nuts and the KKK. Which one is more dangerous? Obviously, niether has any power.
