Do you notice that the higher up you go (as far as playoff success and winning the big one), the more help the QB has on his team (as far as WR's, RB's and defense)? Kelly is your lone exception, but thats only because the Bills lost 4 times I'm sure. Again, TEAMS win titles.
Tom Brady is a joke. Kenny Stabler would pound the snot out of that pretty boy. Why don't they just put Trent Dilfer and Kurt Warner ahead of Jim Kelly and Marino.
So QBs should only be defined by stats and not how they perform under pressure, in big games? Then what separates good QBs from great QBs? Based on stats, Moon is superior to Montana, Young, Bradshaw, Aikman? Moon had tons of talent on offense. Rozier, White, Brown, Matthews, Munchak, Givens, Slaughter, Hill, Jeffries ................
wow; this is great; an Oilers thread. Ok, so Moon was my hero when I was a child, love that 1 Oilers Jersey, cool Jersey... anyway... He should definitely be up there at least 20-25. C`mon, they guy had like a 500 yard game against the Chiefs if I`m not mistaken. The Oilers, my favorite team all time, Next to the Rox of course.
Williams won the Super Bowl, but he didn't have the type of extended career that Moon had. Moon was really the first black qb to be the face of a franchise.
Wow! I didn't realize they racked up so many points that year. It's been a while, but I remember they at least learned how to slow it down. They stopped playing man coverage, switched to a deep zone, let the WR catch the short passes, try to knock the crap out of them, and hope that the long drives would stall out with a turnover. Looking at the stats you can see the difference in Warren Moon's stats at the peak of the run-and-shoot and the end. Year YD TD INT 1990 4689 33 13 1991 4690 23 21 1992 2521 18 12 *injured 1993 3485 21 21 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/MoonWa00.htm
Another weird stat. Carr had more passing yards last season in the Texans conservative offense than Moon had in 1993 in the run-and-shoot. David Carr 2004 Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT 285 466 61.2 3531 7.6 16 14 Warren Moon 1993 Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT 303 520 58.3 3485 6.7 21 21
You might hate the Cowboys, but Aikman is right where he should be. His stats aren't crazy since he had Emmitt Smith to run the ball so much, but the dude hardly ever threw INTs, he was one of the most accurate passers ever, he won a Super Bowl MVP in one of the three Super Bowls he won. The argument that they had an awesome team to help him out doesn't fly as many of those QBs on the list also had awesome teams to help them out.
This isn't in defense of moon, just making a point that passing stats are way up across the league. its nothing now to go over 3,000 which used to be notable.
I just took a picture with Chris when the Raiders came into town for the preseason game. He's the working cornerbacks coach for them now. Same here about favorite player, fellow irish/mexican alliance member. I remember that one time he ripped a ball out of a KC player and ran it back for a touchdown. I think that was just before he became a free agent. MAN, I loved MOON. THAT and I hate Stephen Jackson.
this is why John Elway is my #1. that guy got his team to the Super Bowl (the ones they lost). i've never seen a player MORE put a team on his back then that guy did...with questionable talent around him. he didn't get his titles until he had terrell, that's true. but to put your team on your back as many times as that guy did to just get there was remarkable to me.
A supporting cast seperates a good QB from a great QB (as far as winning championships is concerned). You keep bringing up playoff success but continue to dismiss the other positions needed to have that kind of success. As another poster pointed out (with Dilfer), a scrub QB can be on the right team and win. Every QB that you use as an example of winning played on a better TEAM than Moon ever played on when they won (Montana, Young, Aikman, Bradshaw, Elway when he finally won). I don't see how you can deny that. Moon did not play with scrubs but he didn't play with HOF talent like the other QB's you mention (any Oiler RB < Emmit, Davis, Craig, any Oiler receiver < Rice, Taylor, S.Sharpe, Irvin, Stallworth, Swan, etc). Do you deny that? He had HOF players on his O-line, yet he still took a lot of hits due to the system. I have no problem with defining a QB by both (stats and winning). This list obviously doesn't do that, because some players on here haven't won jack (i.e. Manning or Marino) yet they are ranked WAY ahead of Moon. Marino I have no problem with but players like Manning (who still has had more offensive help in his short career with Harrison and James than Moon did)? Since other on this list haven't won the writer is obviously considering both (winning and statistics). Since the Oilers were a regular playoff team and Moon's numbers are in the top 5 in almost everything, I would think that would put him in the top 25 at least. I'm not saying he is the best ever, but not top 25 despite being top 5 in everything?
For those who think Moon should be a lock for top 25, what is your take on Vinny Testaverde? They have pretty similar career stats. Should Vinny be top 25, or even close to it?
Slaughter, was not a great receiver when he got to Houston. Rozier had one, count them one 1K yard season and that was 1002, another 950 and that's it. Jefferies had a few good seasons and is maybe underrated but he won't be remembered with the likes of the other receivers on teams that won championships with the championship winning qbs on the list. Givens same boat. But more than anything, none of those guys were the game breaking receivers the others were. Here's an example, when Jefferies caught one hundred balls in a season his yardage total was 1180. Rod Smith for Denver caught 100 balls one year and had over 1600 yards. McCaffery caught 64 balls one season and put up a 1000 yards. Even a guy like Antonio Freeman put up over 900 yards on just 56 catches the year Greenbay won the Superbowl. No other position probably benefited from playing in the run and shoot more than receiver as far as number of balls caught. But none of the Oiler receivers those years were "game breakers". But I will say that maybe the offense didn't allow for it since the passing game was more of a possession game because going back and looking at Slaughter's numbers, he did put up some high yards per catch averages in Cleveland.
Just by looking at his stats, I don't see why not. I mean, Manning is #15 (per this list) based on his numbers and the records he set last yr (with rule changes). I don't know much about Vinny though. Were his teams ok? I realize that you just cant list the top 25 statistical leaders and say they are the best 25. But Moon is top 5 in all the major categories and he missed 6 years. His teams were playoff teams (never won the big one though) and he helped blaze a trail for future black QB's (I mention this because I feel Broadway Joe is on the list for 1 important game even though his numbers aren't all that).
Is there any quarterback on the list that had less talent on offense than Tom Brady? In the Patriot's first two Super Bowls, Tom Brady had Troy Brown and David Patten at WR, Antwain Smith at RB and Christian Fauira at TE. Brady should have a few for Super Bowls in him.
