again, this was your post. you used "we" and now you're putting that dumb logic vs other posters. seriously man, give it up already. again, putting words in my mouth. i never said i was knowledgeable. i simply said i posted in the GARM a lot. and take a chill pill kid (i think you're one since your overreactions are that of a hormonal 16 yo girl). if you take what goes on in an internet forum seriously, you have a problem. you don't like what i have to post or what i have to say, put me on ignore. there's a reason clutch has that feature. use it, and maybe your posts will become more rational, and knowledgeable.
Tell me where this ignore feature is please. I really can't stand you. I have zero respect for you and our sorry excuse for "intelligence." I consider you to be a bandwagonning douchebag and a complete moron. And your inability to properly construct a grammatically correct sentence is annoying as hell (though what should I expect from a guy who probably has an IQ in the teens?). I said we as people who follow the Rockets versus r****ded bandwagonners like you. Once again, your post was something along the lines of "if you follow the Rockets, then you would not want Ellis." I simply disproved your r****ded statement. I don't respect you. You do not even follow the Rockets, you are a Heat fan now (pretty sure there was another thread where you said that you watch ever Heat game). Never really stated my personal opinion on an Ellis for Martin type swap. Which btw is that they are similar type players (outstanding offensive players, don't play much defense) and probably a lateral move (if it went down, so what really) which isn't horrible since Ellis is a) younger and b) better in crunch time (which is a major need for the Rockets since Martin tends to disappear often).
a lot of people on this board have something called "league pass" my friend. i bought it to watch the rockets since i live in los angeles. with league pass, you can watch every NBA game there is. i also watch every heat/laker/75% of thunder/knicks games. so yes, i do watch other teams besides the rockets. but what i really want to say is the lack of tolerance/respect from a "few" posters (including you) towards other fans is pathetic. clutchfans is a great board, and it's the best forum out there b/c many posters/fans are very respectful and tolerant of other fans who come onto this board (like "what" for the grizz...). sure, it's not a good thing when certain posters take it too far (sactown), but most of them keep their team/player preferences to where it should be: the nba dish--where you can discuss ALL THINGS NOT RELATED TO THE ROCKETS. if you do not like what certain posters have to say, you really do not have to reply to them. it's really that simple. try to refrain yourself if you find my posts bothersome instead of going "hormonal" and just bombard this board with posts "like r****ded/stupid/dumb/moron." it shows your lack of respect and maturity.
I guess some might argue this move is lateral, but I still would rather have Martin. Martin shoots and scores more effectively, has a slightly lower turnover rate and slightly higher rebound rate. Yes, Ellis is flashier, can do more off the dribble in iso and supposedly defends better, but his shooting from the field and free throw line is lacking in comparison to kevin. Ellis has a much higher assist rate, but I think that is more a function of team need rather than pure ability. Martin can make the pass, he's just better at finishing and with Lowry here Monta's distributing wouldn't be needed as much. I honestly feel like a portion, not sure how big, of fans on this board are more interested in flashy, high flying, highlight reel guys who have yet to show any semblance of team basketball knowledge over the guy who quietly does his job effectively. I wouldn't even begin to put Monta in the same category as T Will as a bball player right now, but it kinds speaks to the same thing. Some "fans" are more interested in flash than substance. Just don't get it.
Martin >>>> Ellis. 4 extra attempts for a 0.6 better ppg average. Just go ahead and consider that equivalent to at least 2-3 lost TOs a game. 36% from the outside vs 38% Draws 3 fewer fouls per game (vastly underrated aspect) Gives up 4 inches on defense Ball dominator vs system guy (3 TO vs 2) This BBS is always in love with non-Rockets and never appreciates their own enough. Swap these guys and the only upside is we get a significant headstart in tanking.
I wouldnt be opposed to getting Ellis. Just its too much a lateral move when the Rockets have OTHER pressing needs in other positions. Ellis gets another steal more than Martin. Then he makes twice as many assists as Martin, more of a playmaker than play "finisher". So I don't think the difference in wasted possessions is as bad as itd appear. If Kyle Lowry still has "potential", then Ellis has a tad more potential to be a bit better than he is. But the Rockets already have a quality guy at Ellis's position.
Sorry, I've been out of town and didn't want to continue this through my cell phone. a) Can't really argue with that, but that isn't really a reflection on either player. I think we can agree that generally Adelman was a much better coach than Keith Smart. With the different personnel/coaches/philosophies, I just don't like the team record argument. b) My mistake -- consider that "jive" comment retracted. Uncalled for and you're right, you didn't say anything like that. c) I didn't ignore it. I don't know what else you want -- of course the minutes aren't a lot, it only takes into account the last five minutes of close games that each player played in. Both players played comparable minutes to where I think it's fair to make a comparison. As I'm sure you know, I can't find Martin's clutch stats from the 2009-2010 season (must not have qualified w/ enough games/minutes) to compare with Montas. I'm not saying I would trade for Monta -- it would depend on the deal of course. But if I'm starting a team and I'm picking Martin or Monta, I'm going with Ellis. I understand he isn't as efficient, but I think he would be a better defender (on the right team) and I value his ability to take his man 1-on-1 moreso than I do Martin's efficiency. Efficient players are great to have, but I'd prefer a guy who could I give the ball to down the stretch of games. Of course, that's just my opinion and fans are free to have theirs. When comparing Martin to other players, I'm not sure FGA is the best thing to use. Of course, there's also no hardline alternative. Meaning.. yes, Martin takes only 15.8 FGA, but he uses more than ~16 offensive possessions to get his points; he draws fouls, which don't count toward a FGA, but do count as an offensive possession. For example, there's really not much difference in offensive possessions between the guy who shoots 20 FGA/game with no FTs and the guy who shoots 16 FGA/game but gets to the line 8 times. Both are using ~20 offensive possessions to get their points. I wish there was a stat that recorded the number of offensive possessions players used to get their points (FGA + FTA/2?) -- of course, that is too simplified for it to be accurate (and1's, fouled on 3s, etc.) When you look at the per 36 stats, it appears that Martin actually uses more offensive possessions than Ellis to get his points. Of course, Martin is also scoring 4 more points per 36 than Monta.
Clutch Statistics- http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM (4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left, neither team ahead by more than 5 points) Both Ellis and Martin are on there. Ellis' FG%- 48.4% Martin's FG%- 37.8% Ellis' 3ptFG%- 43.5% Martin's 3ptFG%- 22.7% Ellis' pts per 48: 44.4 Martin's pts per 48: 36.9 Martin's +/- : -56 (-16.3 net48+/-) - http://www.82games.com/1011/10HOU7.HTM#clutch Ellis' +/-: -21 (-6.5 net48+/-)- http://www.82games.com/1011/10GSW4.HTM#clutch Martin's W/L: 17-25 (which is weird since the other page listed 43 games for Martin) Ellis' W/L: 20-21 (which is weird since the other page listed 44 games for Ellis)
To give you an idea of what 5 games worth of data is, NO was 5-0 to start the season. The Rockets 0-5. NO finished at 46 wins. The Rockets at 43. Trying to extrapolate 5 games worth of data is at best, a very rough projection. And at worst, extremely misleading. It's one thing to use this for players like Kobe, who year after year ranks among the top in clutch stats. And one can say with certainty that he's a clutch player. But quite different when you project it for Monta Ellis or Kevin Martin. You should look up the definition of True Shooting Percentage somewhere. If you don't understand it, you can ask me. But it basically solves all your questions, and this one stat pretty much defines who Martin is as a player. TS% is basically THE reason why Kevin Martin fans are Kevin Martin fans.
I'm aware of what TS% is -- what I was describing wasn't it. TS% is the FG% of the combination I was talking about.. I don't want the FG%, I want the FGA/offensive possession total. Looking at the construction of the stat, I see they used .44 instead of .5 as I used in the hypothetical. Is there somewhere that shows PPG in connection with (FGA + FTA/.44)? What I want to know is how many offensive possessions they used to get those points, not the % they shoot in them. I get your point about it only being five games worth, but I'm still perfectly OK with using it. 5 games is one small stretch of the season -- players/teams go through hot streaks/slumps/etc. Clutch stats is throughout the year anytime there is a close game. Looking back at Martin's clutch stats from past years, his FG% goes down to sub-40%. I just don't think he really wants the ball late in games. Using Per36 (to normalize minutes) and the TS% FGA formula: Ellis: 21.5 PP36 20.1 "FGA" Martin: 25.9 PP36 21.6 "FGA" So Martin's essentially giving you 4.5 more PPG using 1.5 more FGA/game than Ellis. There could be some other factors that explain the disparity (Martin plays less minutes/more fresh, Monta played over 40minutes per game the last two seasons). But overall, not too surprising given Martin's efficiency. I'd still trade the extra four points for the late game 1-on-1 ability, but I recognize why some wouldn't.
I'm scratching my head here. Why do you feel it should be .5? There are And1s, there are flagrant fouls, there are fouls for 3 pointers... Sometimes you really should just layoff the stats and actually think about how the game is played. If you think 150 minutes in a season is statistically relevant in a season that has 3900+ minutes in it. So be it.
I wish you didn't ignore my previous post. The adjusted "FGA" I used was .44, the number that is used in the TS% calculation. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the clutch stats relevancy. The point I was making was about clutch situations, not the overall game. There is not 3900 minutes available to evaluate how one performs when the defense locks in and the pressure is turned up in the final minutes of close games.
Actually it says a lot about Ellis, that he wants the ball in his hands despite their team being better off with it in Curry's hands. You do see the issue here right?
