The Republican party is the party of intolerance and hypocrisy. This became doubly true when they aligned with grassroots Evangelicals in the 90s. This belongs in another thread, but you bring it up: The Republican party is the party of God, defending Christianity; yet it is also the part of gun rights, elective warfare, death penalty, and eliminating welfare in faovor of tax cuts for the rich. Jesus would be so proud. I'm sure republicans want all these things in the most loving way possible.
geez man, you're just catching up to my old posts XD. I agree about the state of the GOP right now, it's very depressing for me to see scandal after scandal come from them. My only problem is I see the Democrats as an even worse alternative.
Yes it's New Testament. That's probably the only reference to homosexuality in the New Testament. But there was Sodom and Gomorrah (Old Testament) where Lot offered his 2 virgin daughters to the town folk but they wanted the men (who were angels) for their pleasure. I'm not sure I would have done that and I'm not sure how good the father/daughter relationship was after that, but the city paid a price. There are Levitical laws that have been overridden (food) in the New Testament, but this is not one of them. I'm not sure what the "penalty" is. Some might say AIDS, but you have innocent people who get AIDS. But then those gossips can be gossiping on innocent people. Good question though. And I'm not sure what the true Hebrew text says. That is something I wish they would offer in church because I'm too lazy (a sin) to sign-up for a class. I think the overall biblical meaning is that it's wrong. Now I will add that some Christians don't love the sinner or just give it lip service. That is wrong. Jesus summed up the laws into 2 commands - Love the Lord God and love the people around you. Sometimes those are tough things to do but there is no asterisk and no excuse.
Okay, I have now spent my entire afternoon in this thread. One more post and I'll try and leave for a while. I'm an opera singer. In my line of work I've met literally hundreds of gay men and a decent amount of lesbians. I'm close friends with dozens of gayboys. My opinions and thoughts on this subject are formed from a lot of converstations getting to know these wonderful friends of mine, and what they've gone through. I used to be homophobic, especially when I was a middle-schooler reading the bible. I learned better later on. I learned better because I was fortunate to be in a field where I was around a lot of gays, and learned what they're like and what they've faced by hanging out with them. You would be hard-pressed to find any group so universally reviled, repressed, oppressed, and persecuted in the whole world as gays. Even in America, a leading force in civil and human rights, this is still the case. In many cities and states in our country, it is perfectly legal to deny housing and employment to a gay person. Think about that. Imagine if a similar law were passed regarding blacks. Imagine what it would be like to be ostracized from your family for life. No communication. Any communication is short and grudging. Imagine being terrified every day of your young life you'll be found out- and when you are, a new hell will begin for you. Regular beatings at school. Ostracized by the community, by your friends. Being dropped by the friends you do have, for fear of being associated with you. Being looked at with disgust and revulsion. Imagine hating yourself. Strongly. Fervently. Imagine believing it with all your heart when someone tells you that you are disgusting. "Yes, you're right, I'm disgusting. There's something wrong with me. I'm sick." Imagine trying to change yourself, somehow re-write your chemistry, strive to fit in any way you can. Failed, passionless relationships with people you're not attracted to. Constant teasing, even from those who don't hate you. Condescension from Christians who "love" you, but think that you are fundamentally wrong. Because that's what it's about, once you come down to it. When they judge you, when they look down on you and wrinkle their nose in disgust, when they lovingly hope you'll find the true path- it's not your behavior. It's who you are. Imagine praying to God for salvation from your sick, disgusting, wrong gayness- and never getting it. Never truly changing. Never escaping your sick disgusting gay self. Imagine the red-hot fervor your sexuality reaches because you've been repressing it with all your strength- which, of course, only makes it stronger. Imagine the strength you'll need when you decide in college to "come out"- the strength to walk away from beloved family members who will never accept you, beloved friends who will suddenly revile you. Imagine self-loathing at it's deepest levels. Imagine disgust and self-hatred emerging every single time a sexual thought enters your brain. Imagine the utter fear of being found out and losing your job, your home, your friends. Imagine the fear of being "out" and being hunted down by some wacko in the street one night. Almost all gays will experience these feelings. Usually for a much longer time than any human being should have to. Many will carry them their entire lives. Some come out of the closet, have accepting families, and go to a community or profession where they are accepted. But almost all have suffered intense self-hatred, paralyzing fear, massive identity crisis, and overwhelming self-doubt- for years and years. But this is supposedly the life they choose. Bullsh*t. If it was a choice, homos wouldn't exist. No man or woman would chose to bear such suffering if they had an alternative. If culture had influence, homos would disappear, because most culture reviles homosexuality. Gays are born how they are, and cannot change. I know this because I've met hundreds. You can tell that they are who they are- and when you accept that, you realize the same is true of you, too. "I know gay people at work" is the new "I have lots of black friends". Most people think that to be a racist, you have to put on a hood and kill black people. It's a lot more subtle than that, guys.
I thought you knew of only one place in the Bible that denounced homosexuality. And even then, that it was a book that mostly is ignored. I thought we werent going to compare which group has suffered more. Just an uneducated guess, but I'm pretty sure more blacks lose out on houses and jobs than gay people. my earlier post, which you might have missed states that I lean more towards the theory that genetics have a lot to do with sexual orientation. it sounds like you have never met a bad gay person in your life. That's great, I applaud your luck in being able to avoid unruly type people, gay or straight. I live and work in NYC, there is no other way for me to say that I know gay people at work. The entire place at my old job was full of musicians and actors who were for the most part homosexuals. It's just how it is.
I've seen dozens of beatings in my lifetime where someone got beat up for being white or asian. I have yet to see a gay guy get beat up.
I tried so hard my dear to show that you’re my every dream. Yet you’re afraid each thing I do is just some evil scheme A memory from your lonesome past keeps us so far apart Why can’t I free your doubtful mind and melt your cold cold heart Another love before my time made your heart sad and blue And so my heart is paying now for things I didn’t do In anger unkind words are said that make the teardrops start Why can’t I free your doubtful mind,and melt your cold cold heart You’ll never know how much it hurts to see you sit and cry You know you need and want my love yet you’re afraid to try Why do you run and hide from lies,to try it just ain’t smart Why can’t I free your doubtful mind and melt your cold cold heart There was a time when I believed that you belonged to me But now I know your heart is shackled to a memory The more I learn to care for you,the more we drift apart Why can’t I free your doubtful mind and melt your cold cold heart
Nolen - fantastic post. My wife works at a theatre with mostly gay men. Having met them and gotten to know a lot of them very well, you're post is spot on. Mad props also for sticking around in this thread at all - I know it's aggravating.
MANY choices in life do not FEEL like choices I always bring up the analogy of liking Chocolate most folx who like chocolate. . cannot remember not liking chocolate They have loved it since birth . .if u ask them . .does that make it genetic? The Negative consequences associated with the preference does not make it any less a preference to keep the chocolate analogy going . . If Chocolate was outlaws. . and chocolate lovers were seens as obscene would people stop liking chocolate . . NO? Would people stop eating it . . . .. some would? [not unlike folx who are gay but do not practice it] Would some people only eat it on the DOWN LOW? . . .yep . . . not unlike gay men who are married with kids . . . Would some people be out with it not matter what? . . . . yep . . . . Why mar1juana is a DEFINATE choice. . .the same things apply Some folx like MJ but don't smoke it. . . Some folx like MJ but sneak it when they can Some Folx are members of NORML People chose things with negative results all the time some FEEL more natural than others . . all that being said .. . NATURAL . . CHOICE . .. it is all irrelevent people are people and should be treated like people Rocket River
Where did you go to high school? I saw people getting beaten up just because someone thought they were gay when I was in HS.
Here is one thing I will say in favor of gays. I just spoke to someone I went to junior high school with and hadn't talked to in 20 years. (thank you myspace) The two that turned out gay you could have seen coming from a mile away. And they were 12!
hotballa- It would appear that you think my last post was directed straight at you; it wasn't. It was just a general diatribe, my personal reasons why I think sexual preference isn't a choice. I know I've been going straight at you for a few pages, so I can understand how you might have felt that way, if you did. Maybe you didn't and just wanted to pick it apart. I read the bible on my own in Dubai as a child, where there are no churches and no priests and nobody to ask questions. I started at the beginning, I was a slow reader and didn't get very far. Read some cool stuff in the new testament but I forget which books. My statement wasn't to point out who suffers the most- the key word of my quote is that it's near universal- blacks aren't hated in Nigeria and Arabs aren't hated in Iran; but homos are hated everywhere. Picking who suffers most turns it into a competition, and then the conversation is downhill from there. Not my point. I agree wholeheartedly. Yet that doesn't reduce the tragedy when it happens to a gay person. Do you think it does? That's cool. I remember when you said that, I think that was an interesting theory you put down back there. Again, my post wasn't a specific attack on you nor was it an assumption that you specifically think it's a choice. Is this sarcasm? What's your point, if it is? Maybe it's not, it's hard to tell. I've met my share of queeny b****es, but I wouldn't dislike them cause they're gay, just cause they're b****es. Okay, that's cool. I don't think you're lying. That's cool that you know a bunch. I think it's unfortunate that you've held your position of thinking that homosexuality is wrong, when you've had the opportunity to get to know some. But so be it, I'm not going to change your mind on the matter. I'm going to bed. I apologize if I've been rude to you, hotballa, this is one topic that I'll debate for a long time and I get riled up about it. I think you've been for the most part fair and level-headed; you held you cool well for having some liberals biting at your ankles a lot.
Someone in the hangout just posted this, and it is absolutely true: Whether you like it or not, sexual "deviance" will always have cyclical proportions. Which is why I think homosexuals will never be treated as equals. IMO, honestly, I think we will look at these past thirty years as acts of sexual depravity, rather than emancipation. http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so142/News_stories/TeenSex.html __________________
Ok thats actually a pretty good point not at all. Discrimination of any kind is just not right and is 100% illegal. Nah, not sarcasm. I really envy peopel who havent met that many jerks in life, and it sounded like a lot of the gay folks you met were not jerks. Thank you for that, and maybe I thought you were rude initially, but you obviously have a passion for this subject, so I can understand. I am the same way when it comes to the subject of the suffering of the Chinese at the hands of Japan's soldiers during WW2.
