Nolen, I'll try to answer your questions and respond in order: 1. The pedophilia thing and the alcoholism thing are far closer to me to homosexuality than the race thing. When you're born black, you're black. When you're born white, you're white. If you're born with a predisposition to be sexually attracted to children, you're not a pedophile until you start messing with children. There's an action on your part. Or there's restraint on our part. We all have something in our own nature that it's best to resist, in my opinion. 2. I think sexuality is very much a product of environment and culture. What is attractive in one culture is not attractive in the next. We've been knocked over the head with sexual imagery in our culture since we were little kids. I have a friend from Denver who is very attracted to the granola type...I don't find myself attracted to girls who look that way. I think that's entirely about where we're from. 3. I was offended with that article...because the implication was that you couldn't hold those adults responsible. And actually went on to say that children really aren't that harmed by being molested, particularly at younger ages. I find that offensive. 4. Wouldn't affect my relationship with God in one iota. My theology starts from the point that we're all broken and all in need of a savior. Everyone has their stumbling blocks and their challenges. I certainly have mine.
For all the anti-gay christians out there: "Loving the sinner and hating the sin" sure beats the hell out of beating up gay people. But you have to understand: If you think homosexuality is essentially wrong, there's no frosting you can put on it to make it okay. Nothing. By maintaining this belief, you are, in your own way, actively taking part in the societal suppression and oppression of millions of innocent people. All the love and kindness in the world won't ameleorate the harm you're doing through your ignorance. By the way, on the topic of Christianity vs. homosexuality, what is there in the bible vs. homos other than the stuff in Leviticus? Christians almost entirely ignore the laws of Leviticus, and for good reason. In my experience, "love the sinner but hate the sin" is paying lip-service to open-mindedness while still using cherry-picked passages from the bible to pass judgement on people. It's a nice sentiment, though. I guess.
wow I don't know what to say. I've made detailed responses to all of your posts explaining my position, and all you do is go back and keep harping on this. Would it make your day to have me say what you want to hear? How does this kind of attitude achieve anything? So because I feel homosexuality and pedophilia as a practice is wrong, you say that I imply all homosexuals are pedophiles. Well so much for open minded discussions. I've tried to stay civil, but obviously anyone with an opinion different than some of you is jus a caveman who knows nothing. The Republican party would like to thank each and everyone of your contributions to their reelection campaign in 2006.
my argument isnt that gays shoudn't march, it's that they don't need to march. you do not need a march to tell people what kind of p*rnography you enjoy. btw, thanks for putting more words in my mouth. It's obvious all you want to hear from me is some sort of speech comparing homosexuals to things worse than the Nazis. Sorry, I refuse to take the bait.
Great replies, thanks. That's really interesting, I've never heard that point before- that an action activates the identity or status. I disagree, just through my own experience interacting with others. For example: my voice teacher refers to himself as alcoholic, though he hasn't had a drink in 13 years. In my opinion a priest could spend his life celibate, but would still have a gay or straight identity regardless. I can see how your view ties into the Christian idea that we're all inherently sinful anyway. Totally agree here- society affects a great deal what we find attractive in the gender we're attracted to. And modern western society is so chock-loaded with visual sexual stimuli everywhere, the effect is exacerbated. I still think that sexual preference just can't be altered, and I know that from knowing hundreds of gay men who fought who they were with all their being, but couldn't escape who they were. More on that in another post. Even if I believed pedophilia was hard-wired, I'd still feel the right to hold one to account for his actions, because those actions directly harm another human being, often scarring them for life. I'm astounded the article claimed that it didn't hurt young children, that's just disgusting. The number of people I know who are scarred for life from childhood molestation... it's just wrong. Cool. This is one of the fundamental blocks of Christianity that I disagree with most strongly, but I see where you're coming from. Thanks for sharing.
loving the sinner and hating the sin applies to all sins, not just the practice of homosexuality. We're all sinners. My sister stays out late sometimes and is irresponsible and disrespectful to my parents, but I still love her, I just don't like how she acts sometimes. Your inability to grasp this seems to indicate that the only way you can ever accept someone is if they do exactly what you do oir think exactly the way you think. yet you don't see a problem with it, and at the same time you condemn those of us who are able to love those who do things we don't agree with. So you've never in your life been pissed at your mother or father because of something they did, but yet at the same time still love them? wow.
Good god dude, homosexuality is more than what happens in a bedroom! It's the lifestyle of these people, it's who they are 24/7! How can you say that being gay comes down to what p*rn you watch, or who you have sex with? Homosexuals are one of the most oppressed minorities worldwide! Of course they need to march! They deserve better in life!
So must all Christian's tolerate sin? Homosexuality was a sin and is a sin to those who believe the bible. Romans 1:21-32 "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; {they are} gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them." Now I don't see how you can read from the New Testament and not see where Christian's might get this "ignorance". Feel free to read the whole chapter or book if you think I'm "cherry picking". However, you will notice that gossips, slanderer, boastful, murder, malice, etc. - they are all listed in there. It can be argued that gossiping has the same penalty as homosexuality or even murder - another thread. Do Christians do these things? Even the true Christians sin - we shouldn't but we do - that's another thread. And a true Christian should love the sinner in ways they can't understand (above and beyond normal) because WE are ALL sinners. But I don't think you can tell him/her that they should not hate the sin. There is a difference and it is possible.
Really. And all this time I thought they were normal like everyone else, cept for the fact that they are turned on by their own gender. So this 24/7 lifestyle which you refer to, does it mean they do things differently than us? Last time I noticed, the homosexuals I worked with at my old job liked to talk about sports and watched boxing. I guess since they're gay, they must like it for other reasons other than competition. No offense, but you need to stop thinking like that about homosexuals. What's next, you gonna assume all those poor African Americans live in the ghetto? Geez man, do you even know any homosexuals?
That's cool. I like that. That's not what I see too often when I hear that infamous quote. I think we're at an impasse, or always were. I think oppression of gays for being gay is wrong. Do I want you to agree? Yes. Am I frustrated that you disagree, even with love and kindness? Yes. Perhaps I should give you more credit for being nice about it.
hotbolla: Homosexuality is wrong. Nolen: Homosexuality isn't wrong. This sums it up. Not much else to say; all arguments are based on either of the two worldviews, and from there the two never shall meet.
You've lost me here. This is the second time you've brought out the "I thought gays were normal like everyone else" thing; by the way you phrase it, I guess you're trotting out what you see as a liberal argument for homosexuals? I suppose I'd agree, gays are just like the rest of us, except for sexual preference- but that preference does not go away or alter. Some gayboys are very queeny, some are very butch. They just are who they are. But they are who they are all the time. When you tell a gay person not to be gay, you're not telling them to stop having sex with who they want- you're telling them not to be who they are. I told you in the same post why they need to march; that's what important. So far you've ignored it.
Thanks for the quote, hadn't seen that one. Is Romans in the New Testament? (forgive my ignorace on the topic.) What does "and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error" mean? I wonder what the original greek or Hebrew said, exactly. Did it say "indecent acts?" Oh- just googled "homosexuality bible" and there are TONS of websites on this specific issue. I have some reading to do.
its really my belief that gays are like everyone else, whose only difference is a sexual preference. I understand what you are saying about them being gay all the time. but a gay guy watching a game and eating a sandwich is just another guy watching a game and eating a sandwich, the only difference is that when he is in the bedroom he wants another guy with him. Have you ever seen a gay pride parade in New York? that does far more damage to image of homosexuals than anything else. it's not exactly the most family friendly atmosphere. I'm willing to let this go though, you're right we've spent far too much time on this.
Nothing, I was just pointing out that they're normal like everyone else. I forgot DoD is not a good place for sarcasm
if you bothered to read my earlier post, you would see I lean more towards the theory that genetics have a lot to do with whether or not one is homosexual
