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Mohammed the historical figure

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, May 21, 2010.

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  1. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    Sorry, there are many errors in there, namely:

    - If the Prophet is not a regular human then please explain these:

    Also, take note that there was an active attempt by people who saw the Prophet PBUH and met him and heard him to exaggerate his stature, see this fabricated Hadith:

    See this correct Hadith from Bukhari (with all due respect to Christians, this hadith is not referring to Jesus PBUH's status as God, rather, just to general exaggeration):




    Please see these hadiths which show that, several times, the Prophet or Sahaba in fact had to do exactly what you are saying they "would have done":

    ...because it is possible that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did that because he was in a place where he was unable to sit down, or he did that to show the people that it is not haraam. link

    It is reported that `Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) refused to pray inside the church and he prayed outside it in order to ward off any false notions that may occur to the minds of ordinary Muslims who may be enticed to pray at the exact place where `Umar performed prayer (i.e., inside the church). link

    Also, let's not forget the Sunni justification for the Hadith which prohibits the writing down of hadith. Among the justifications is that the Prophet did not want people to mix up his words and the Quran - implying a strict difference. Also implying that people took it as Sunna to write down what he says and made the error of assuming everything he says is divine.

    I see. So you're saying the Quran does not contain the complete details?

    Just to be absolutely clear hre before I respond fully to this last box of comments. I need to be clear that you are saying:

    1) The Quran is not complete in its description of the Wudhu/ablution and is completed by the Prophet's orders in such a way that if you only followed the Quran you would be incomplete in your prayer and hence sinning in prayer?

    2) God was disorganized in the verse about wudhu, not indicating the order required by divine law, which then Muhammad PBUH clarified to us?

    3) It tells you once, and once is fardh in wudhu as per the Quran. In Arabic, it is clear if it's once, twice or more than twice. If you believe the Prophet's example is fardh, then for you fardh is 3. Once is not ok for you. For our beliefs, if you believe the Quran allows the Prophet to create law/shari3a through any action he takes, then not doing what he did is haraam. Are you saying that once is the fardh or 3 times is the fardh?

    4) You are saying that God, for some reason, said to pray, when to pray, why to pray and where to pray but.... the Prophet decided that the minute details are equally important and therefore created laws in this respect which are missing from the Quran. Once again, an implication that the Quran is incomplete in its detail about this topic?

    I will answer all your questions, I just need to understand what you are saying about the Quran.

    Remember:

    "And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)

    “Shall I then seek a Judge other than Allah? When it is He Who has revealed to you the Book fully detailed?” (Qur'an 6:114)
     
  2. AroundTheWorld

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    If I read this thread correctly, there is no clear-cut common understanding among Muslims about the details of Muhammed's life and role, would it be correct to say that?
     
  3. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    There is clear cut understanding withing sects. There is definitely not a common understanding though. Take for example the two biggest groups, the Sunnis and Shiite. They both believe in the Quran. They both believe that hadith is a valid source of law and clarification of the Quran therefore their interpretations of the Quran vary. Also, the Sahih or "correct" Sunni hadiths come from different people and methodology than the Shiite hadiths.

    In fact, many shiites consider some of the highest rated Sunni hadith narrators to be traitors of the Prophet.

    Another example is that "temporary marriage" is commonly accepted in shiite jurisprudence, but commonly rejected in Sunni jurisprudence.

    Extremist Sunnis such as some members of Al Qaeda have gone as far as to say that shiites are not even Muslim!!!! Imagine that there are Muslims who consider (for example) Ahmadinejjad to be an "infidel"... how does that bode for an atheist? lol

    I disagree with the traditional role suggested by Sunni Muslims. I don't believe the Prophet can create law or explain the Quran better than we can or that God protected him from making mistakes or that he knows the unknown.

    I find the thinking odd that "God protected him from mistakes, but he did make mistakes, and when he did make mistakes they were "planned" mistakes in order to teach something after it". This is especially odd to me since all mistakes in the world, by the understanding of traditional Sunni thinking, are "planned" mistakes and have a reason. Therefore the Prophet's mistakes are not distinct from our mistakes and neither God nor the Prophet mentioned anywhere that the Prophet's mistakes are of a different nature than our mistakes.

    A lot of the mistakes are politically charged. The shiites believe that Ali shouldve been the Caliph after the Prophet whereas everyone else believes Abu Bakr was the rightful Caliph. That's what created the intitial split and ultimately led to civil war, and you will find today that somehow Sunnis reject everything the Shiites specifically believe, and Shiites reject everything the Sunnis believe - a remarkable thing considering they both reach conlusions with an allegedly "scientific" method, right?
     
  4. PointForward

    PointForward Member

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    I stumbled upon this little film recently and it made me think of this thread. It's called "Muhammad: Legacy of a Prophet" and it's made by a known movie maker Michael Wolfe and shown on PBS. The maker is very objective in my opinion and he provides an interesting 2 hours of describing the life of the prophet. If you're interested in learning more, here's the link to a low quality google video or you can rent it/torrent it or something:

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5588678537059723932#

    The thing I would like you and everyone else to get out of the video is the historical context in which the prophet's life took place. Those were very dark times in the Arabian peninsula, and the prophet's teaching single handedly ended the madness and yes, created peace and prosperity (SHOCKER, I know! :) )
     
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