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Moderate Islam - does it exist? If yes, how do YOU define it?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, Aug 31, 2010.

  1. dmc89

    dmc89 Member

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    Per my Ismaili friends, Houston has one if not the largest Ismaili population in North America.

    The Aga Khan for Ismailis is similar to what the Pope is for Roman Catholics. 'A great man, superior to his peers, closest to God. Because of this his opinion of how the text should be interpreted is almost law i.e. praying 3 times/day because the usual 5 is too much for modern society etc.

    As a Sunni this would be heretical imo but seeing firsthand what the AG does/has done, I think he's a magnanimous leader with loads of money and influence who seeks to wrestle brand management of Islam from the extremists.
     
  2. dmc89

    dmc89 Member

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    I studied Islamic history and theology quite extensively in undergrad so my 2 cents on this matter:

    I understand that some posters have said moderate Islam is simply the core ideas minus the violence. This is wrong imo since it assumes Islam like the other faiths is inherently violent, and that moderates simply cherry pick whatever ideas will facilitate them getting along with fellow human beings till death. Read PointForward's post to get a gist of the type of violence espoused in the Quran.

    Islam for me is just the Qu'ran, and not the hadiths or practices like the jizya/tax introduced by humans for earthly/materialistic desires (more revenue, consolidation of empire).

    Islamic jurisprudence derives from:
    Quran
    Sunna (anecdotes about Muhammad, written centuries after his death via oral transmission)
    Scholarly consensus
    Reason, logic, common sense
    Public Welfare (i.e. traffic lights are good for all drivers)
    Custom (blood money)

    As you can see, there is only one source that is (what I believe) divine and "pure" - the Quran. All else is fallible, variable, and subjective. For those of you sincerely interested in Islam, just pick up a Quran and read it, and interpret it using the concept of tawhid (oneness with God, oneness with yourself, oneness with other people, oneness with the environment and Earth). You'll see that popular criticisms against Islam were practices derived from sources other than the Quran i.e. women wearing veil/hijab.
     
  3. R0ckets03

    R0ckets03 Member

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    I've been asked by many Ismailis to not describe Aga Khan as our "pope".

    Houston, I think has the largest Ismaili population pretty much in North American. Maybe Vancouver is higher.
     
  4. R0ckets03

    R0ckets03 Member

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    Also, we believe he is a direct descendant of the Prophet. Something most other Muslims don't find too amusing.
     
  5. HorryForThree

    HorryForThree Member

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    lol, I can tell you what the book is about, but its really a worthwhile read on the topic of formulating an Islamic reformation and determining principles for moderate Islam.

    To really appreciate the book though, you have to understand some basic background. Ramadan is the grandson of Hassan Al Banna, who founded the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt in the early 20th century. Ramadan grew up in Switzerland, went on to study philosophy, French literature, and Islam, writing his PhD on Nietzsche. You can check out his wiki page to get a pretty good background on him and his views. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariq_Ramadan

    In Radical Reform, Ramadan focuses on the institution of Usul al Fiqh, that being the process by which legislation is determined in Islamic Law (Islamic Law encompassing everything from the way one prays to the way one interacts with society). He attempts to strike a chord with both traditionalists and progressives, and rejects many medieval categorizations that were created within a specific social/cultural/political context. To put it succinctly, he aims to challenge what many see as canonical scholarship as merely an interpretive religious expression localized to specific instances which dont reflect our current social/cultural/political context.
     
  6. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    If you don't mind me asking, out of curiosity, have you interpreted this based on your own reading of the Quran?

    I ask because of your comment which I've bolded. Although I agree that veiling is not required, I think it is unfair to those who do believe it's required for us to say that the practice is derived outside the Quran. I think the Quranic verse can (1) very rationally be interpreted in both ways and (2) that 'X' level of hijab is absolutely required in Islam (with 'X' certainly being beyond covering 'private parts').

    I say this because I have a very close friend who believes, based on the Quranic verses alone, that hijab is required of her (though not in an exaggerated/overdone way) and we have always been able to respect each other's opinion on it.
     
  7. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    Why do they have a problem with this?

    There are so many descendants. One of my closest friend is a direct descendant. It's so common in the Middle East and means, IMO, absolutely nothing. I'm pretty sure the Prophet PBUH was dead against placing significance on hereditary things.
     
  8. PointForward

    PointForward Member

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    Are you referring to the verse "...Falyadribanna bijalabeebihinna 3la jyoobihinna...", on which most so called "scholars" base their requirement for this modern form of the "hijab"?

    If so, then I'll give you the ultimate absolutely unequivocal interpretation. All one needs is a firm background in the Arabic language and a little knowledge of the historical context. The REAL meaning of the word "juyoob" as referred to by this verse is, quite frankly, "breasts", or more specifically, what we refer to as "cleavage" nowadays (ie: when the middle part of the breasts is showing). the REAL meaning of "Jalabeeb" as it was used back in the day is "outer garments", ie: clothes, or covers, both male or female.

    Now that we cleared that up, we go on to context. As documented in islamic literature, this Aya was sent instructing Muhammad to relay this message to women, in light of a recent event that took place. This event was that one of Muhammad's answered the door one day with her "juyoob" accidentally showing, and thus this aya was sent to prompt the Prophet to instruct women to conceal this area using their outer garments as to not arouse men and cause adultery etc etc..

    The various other Ayas regarding "al zeenah" (not zina, zeenah as in visual enhancement: make up, jewelry, scents etc..) are interpreted the right way: basically, women aren't supposed to "flaunt" their goodies and look all sexy to strangers as to not arouse men (I find that an amazing thing in the quran, that god basically realizes that he created men more horny and unable to control their urges than women, and thus he instructs women not to flaunt as to help men "keep it in their pants"). I personally think that the level of "sexiness" allowed varies from society to society: In the U.S, Europe, and even most of the Mediterranean muslim countries, I guarantee you not a single dude would get aroused from seeing a girl's hair, arms, face, etc.. Hence, I think the proper level of "modesty" is dressing casually, ie: jeans (not tight, not accentuating the, umm, ya know, the posterior :grin: ), a T-shirt, you know, like most non-slutty high school and college girls dress (although it is pretty hard to find those nowadays lol).

    A final note here: the hadith talking about "the only parts of a woman's body that's permitted to be visible are her face and hands" has been confirmed to be a "hadith Mawdoo3" , ie: not sa7i7, and in my opinion is completely fabricated.
     
  9. Tom Bombadillo

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    Please stop taking verses out of the Quran. You can find idiotic beliefs and customs in every religious book. They all are all ridiculous...
     
  10. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost Member
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    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703369704575461503431290986.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

    A Symposium: What Is Moderate Islam?

    The controversy over a proposed mosque in lower Manhattan has spurred a wider debate about the nature of Islam. We asked six leading thinkers—Anwar Ibrahim, Bernard Lewis, Ed Husain, Reuel Marc Gerecht, Tawfik Hamid and Akbar Ahmed—to weigh in.
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. R0ckets03

    R0ckets03 Member

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    Other posters on this forum have had a problem when I have brought that up in previous threads.

    I don't think it means anything or makes the Aga Khan special either. But I didn't realize that it was pretty common in the Middle East.

    I'm not religious at all, don't go to jamatkhana (mosque) or pay dashond (zakat), fast or anything that is required of Islam. However, I do have tremendous respect for Aga Khan because of the importance he places on education and volunteerism.
     
  12. AroundTheWorld

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    In light of the current events, I came across this article and found it interesting and relevant to this thread. It originally appeared in the Washington Post.

    ------------------

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/will-the-real-moderate-mu_b_817600.html

    Qasim RashidMember, Muslim Writers Guild of America
    Posted: February 3, 2011 06:34 PM

    Will the Real Moderate Muslims Please Stand Up?


    The crisis in Egypt has re-ignited the debate of whether moderate Islam is a reality or just a show. Political and religious dissatisfaction, especially in the Third World, demonstrate the need for a new leadership philosophy. In an NBC interview shortly after Faisal Shahzad's 2010 arrest, I was asked, "Do you think more moderate Muslims need to stand up against radical Islam?" "Absolutely!" I replied. In response, I was asked: Well, what exactly is a moderate Muslim? In the absence of a unified voice from the Muslim world and with time running out, it seems few have a clear idea. However, for well over a century the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community has practically defined, through the Quran and Prophet Muhammad's life, what it means to be a moderate Muslim.


    First, a moderate Muslim recognizes that Islam requires complete separation of mosque and state. The Quran does not endorse any particular government philosophy, but instead requires that justice, not religion, be the determinative factor when governing (4:59). Extremists, like the Wahabbis, ignorantly preach that Islam requires the imposition of sharia on non-Muslims. But since the Quran categorically forbids all religious compulsion (2:257), such an imposition find no Islamic justification.

    Contrary to Faisal Shahzad's ambitions, the Quran requires a Muslim to obey and be loyal to those in his charge. Prophet Muhammad added, "You should listen to and obey your ruler, even if you [despise him]." While national loyalty does not forbid dissent, that dissent must be expressed legally and peacefully -- never violently. Critics like Robert Spencer claim Islam allows Muslims to engage in taqiyya, treachery against non-Muslims. However, the Quran unequivocally forbids lying or hiding the truth and Prophet Muhammad instructed, "It is obligatory for you to tell the truth."

    Moderate Muslims reject violent jihad, recognizing that true Jihad is the struggle to attain nearness to God through good works. Would-be Portland bomber Mohamad Mohamed apparently never read the Quranic verse, "... whosoever killed a person... it shall be as if he had killed all mankind" (5:33). If Mohamad Mohamed felt persecuted, the Quran requires that a Muslim facing persecution must sooner emigrate than retaliate (4:98). Even after facing 12 years of actual persecution in Mecca, Prophet Muhammad rejected all forms of terrorism, instead ordering his followers to migrate to preserve the peace.

    In response, critics cite the abrogation argument, asserting that later "violent" verses of the Quran abrogate earlier "peaceful" verses. Far from abrogating any verse of the Quran, these so-called violent verses permit self-defense and mandate the protection of universal religious freedom. For example, the Quran states, "Permission to fight is given to those against whom war is made..." (22:40). A moderate Muslim recognizes that the Quran permits (not commands) self-defense if attacked after emigration. The next verse commands Muslims to indiscriminately protect all places of worship. This teaching is neither unjust, nor does it nullify any prior verses.

    Therefore, a moderate Muslim recognizes that Prophet Muhammad promoted freedom of religion and speech for all mankind, without threat of punishment for blasphemy or apostasy. This is one reason why Ahmadi Muslims vehemently reject anti-blasphemy legislation and instead support both the First Amendment and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    Moderate Muslims also recognize the equality and empowerment of women. Prophet Muhammad clearly stated that education is a fundamental right for Muslim women. His first wife Khadija was an accomplished entrepreneur and his wife Ayesha was a prolific jurist. While Islam urges both sexes to dress modestly and guard their eyes, women are enjoined to cover their heads and wear an outer garment to conceal their beauty from strangers. Her dress encourages society to focus on her intellectual merit rather than her physical characteristics. Indeed, a December 2010 New York Times article reported that American Muslim women have "achieved a level of success and visibility unmatched elsewhere." Modestly dressed Muslim women are active in every sphere of life as doctors, lawyers, journalists, engineers, politicians, as well as mothers and wives. Furthermore, the Quran is clear that both sexes are equal in matters of spiritual salvation (4:125).

    Additionally, a moderate Muslim recognizes that Islam does not monopolize salvation. Rather than condemn non-Muslims to eternal hell, the Quran declares that God's prevailing mercy offers salvation to all Jews, Christians and people of other paths who believe in God and do good works (2:63). Extremists await a bloody Messiah who will kill all non-Muslims to attain worldly Islamic domination. However, moderate Muslims recognize that a prophet's only responsibility was the delivery of the message. Compulsion was categorically forbidden. Consequently, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community are Muslims who believe in the Messiah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian. Ahmad, like Jesus, came to end religious wars, and unify mankind under one flag of peace and tolerance.

    This definition of moderate Islam has fared extremely well for the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community. In just a century, Ahmadi Muslims have established themselves in nearly 200 countries with millions of adherents, hundreds of schools and dozens of hospitals. Their membership includes the Muslim world's first Nobel Prize winner in Dr. Abdus Salam and the only Muslim President of the UN and World Supreme Court in Sir Zafrullah Khan. Perhaps most importantly, they live as loyal and productive citizens to each of their respective countries, demonstrating that moderate Islam practically thrives in this world -- not just in theory. As organizations the world over scramble to define moderate Islam, the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community extends an invitation to adopt a century old tried and true method -- and you don't even need to be Muslim to endorse it.


    ---------

    So, in summary:

    "Moderate" defined as:

    - Complete separation of mosque and state, contrary to wahhabism, no imposition of sharia on non-Muslims
    - No Taqiyya (lying to non-believers)
    - Rejection of violent jihad
    - Freedom of speech and religion
    - No threat of punishment for blasphemy/apostasy
    - Equality and empowerment of women
    - No monopolization of salvation (no belief in eternal hell for non-believers)

    Sounds pretty good to me.

    My initial list (which most seemed to agree with) was:

    - wants Sharia as the rule of law = not moderate
    - wants women to be forced to (at least) veil = not moderate
    - believes in polygamy = not moderate
    - believes marriage to a menstruating child should be legal = not moderate
    - thinks amputations and stonings are acceptable punishments = not moderate
    - thinks apostasy should be criminal = not moderate
    - views Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims as "dhimmis" with lesser rights than Muslims = not moderate

    Pretty much in line with what this guy posted. If all Muslims thought like this guy, I would not have a problem with Islam as it is practiced.

    But, e.g., the Muslim Brotherhood

    - wants to impose sharia law on everyone, does not believe in separation of mosque and state
    - wants to enforce a "dhimmi" tax on non-Muslims: In 1997 Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mustafa Mashhur told journalist Khalid Daoud[99] that he thought Egypt's Coptic Christians and Orthodox Jews should pay the long-abandoned jizya poll tax, levied on non-Muslims in exchange for protection from the state, rationalized by the fact that non-Muslims are exempt from military service while it is compulsory for Muslims. He went on to say, "we do not mind having Christians members in the People's Assembly...the top officials, especially in the army, should be Muslims since we are a Muslim country...This is necessary because when a Christian country attacks the Muslim country and the army has Christian elements, they can facilitate our defeat by the enemy." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood#Criticisms
    - most probably wants to force women to veil
    - would probably advocate punishments for "blasphemy" and apostasy
    - is hostile towards Israel and some of its leaders want war with Israel.

    Reasons to be concerned.
     
  13. s land balla

    s land balla Member

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    What does Islam have to do with the Egyptian protests?
     
  14. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Member

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    I think Jon Stewart talked about how its a bad PR move to call yourself the Muslim Brotherhood. If they just called themselves the Brotherhood, then they probably dont get any attention.

    While intended to be a joke I sadly find that to be true.
     
  15. AroundTheWorld

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    The Muslim Brotherhood is the best-organized opposition group. Around 90 % of the population in Egypt are Muslims. There are concerns that a post-Mubarak government including or backed by the Muslim Brotherhood could sway Egypt into a more fundamentalist direction regarding the brand of Islam that is predominant in the country.
     
  16. trustme

    trustme Member

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    I hope you realize that no one in the Western countries would want a Muslim leading their army, either. How many countries would be OK with a Muslim commander in chief??

    "Most probably" and "would probably" does not count.

    You are yet to prove (with a legit source) where Mohamed Ghanem said he wants to go to war with Israel.
     
  17. trustme

    trustme Member

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    Nothing really. But when you most probably suffer from paranoid schizophrenia, you're naturally going to be concerned about how Islam plays into it all.
     
  18. Hydhypedplaya

    Hydhypedplaya Member

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    The potential outcome is still better than Egypt's state of affairs for the past few decades. I'm sure Egyptians are tired of living in a country where a state of emergency has been going on for since the 1970's. And this is after Mubarak said he would repeal the Emergency Law in 2006. Surely a government chosen by the people would be better than one where a 'President' rules for over 20 years and has these powers in his grasp:

     
  19. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    The Muslim Brotherhood has come out in favor of a secular as opposed to religious govt. in Egypt. They have stated they don't want to and won't run for control of Egypt.

    It's hard to take the threat ATW is trying to claim exists from them as seriously at this point.
     
  20. AroundTheWorld

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    Apparently the Egyptian Christians disagree with you (although I am not surprised that you would try to downplay the threat).

    Egyptian Christians Concerned About Muslim Brotherhood

    International Christian Concern officials recently returned from Egypt, where they met with Egyptian Christians to discuss the mass demonstrations calling for the end of Mubarak’s 30-year reign as president.

    ICC reports that most Christians share the frustrations of their Muslim countrymen and support the demonstrators for political reform, an end to police brutality, and stagnant incomes. At the same time, many Christians fear that the demonstrations could lead to a power vacuum and possible takeover by the only organized, determined, and moneyed opposition: the Muslim Brotherhood. This would, of course, be a disaster for the Christian population.

    "Christians in Egypt are finding themselves at a crossroads. While there is little support for President Mubarak, there is uncertainty over what an alternative government might bring,” says Aidan Clay, the Middle East Regional Manager for ICC.

    “The Muslim Brotherhood is trying to hijack the revolution and call it their own. If the Brotherhood is able to gain the upper hand, Christians fear that the few religious freedoms they do have will also be taken away from them. While some Christians have a trust in the army to protect them from the Brotherhood, others look to Turkey and how Islamic radicals have neutered the army."

    While Coptic Pope Shenouda III vowed support to President Mubarak on Monday, Christians vividly remember the horrific bombing outside a church in Alexandria that killed 24 people on New Year's Eve. While the government blamed the Army of Islam, an A Qaeda-linked Palestinian network, many Christians believe the attack was executed by Egyptians. ICC reports many Christians see Mubarak's accusation of the Palestinian group as a cover to avoid addressing internal Islamic terrorism targeting Christians.

    Nearly all Christians and many others live in fear. "I'm on the streets right now on watch because we need to protect our families, our homes," the director of an evangelical training center told ICC. "It's really dangerous because of those who got out of the prisons. Everybody is really praying hard for the Lord to have mercy on the people here, because people are starving. They lack food, money, everything. There is no money to buy food because all the banks are closed. The situation is really tou



    Read more: http://www.charismamag.com/index.ph...cerned-about-muslim-brotherhood#ixzz1D6tNdusL
     

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