I couldn't do it *quick* so I had to go do some checking when I had time. Here are the past 20 ROYs: 1982-83 - Terry Cummings 1983-84 - Ralph Sampson 1984-85 - Michael Jordan 1985-86 - Patrick Ewing 1986-87 - Chuck Person 1987-88 - Mark Jackson 1988-89 - Mitch Richmond 1989-90 - David Robinson 1990-91 - Derrick Coleman 1991-92 - Larry Johnson 1992-93 - Shaquille O'Neal 1993-94 - Chris Webber 1994-95 - Grant Hill(tie), Jason Kidd 1995-96 - Damon Stoudamire 1996-97 - Allen Iverson 1997-98 - Tim Duncan 1998-99 - Vince Carter 1999-00 - Elton Brand(tie), Steve Francis 2000-01 - Mike Miller 2001-02 - Pau Gasol Those I do not consider to be "stars" (not "superstar") on this list: Cummings, Person, Jackson, Stoudamire, Brand?, Miller, Gasol? 7 out of 22 (32%). Brand and Gasol are debatable. Excluding them, we got 5 out of 22 (23%). About 1 in 4 ROYs in the past 2 decades did not turn into "stars." Of course, this is just opinion. Someone might classify all of the above as stars.
So it takes 6 pages to tell everyone that a 2nd-round pick for another team isn't going to be a "star"? Who here is saying he WILL be a star? Seems like you're just talking to yourself. You could've waived your t-shirt in the air a few times before giving it away, you know.
Heypartner I think thats a little weak to say the USA guards didn't CARE about defense in the WC (USA vs Argentina) matchup. Again you only seem to notice the negatives. Ginobili 3pt stroke looks streaky at best to me in the WC--but he proved to me he could drive on NBA type of players and score--how well he does this come this season is unknown. But we do know he has the skills to to drive on NBA quality players. HeyP, I am not sitting here picking every positive of Ginobili--or saying hes Jordan. Im saying he has potential to be a good player all the way to a good bench player for a good team--but you just seem to clain that any time he did somethig positive on the USA it was cause "NO ONE CARED?" Its obvious you hate the hype this kid is getting. But personally I don't see too much hype for this kid--no one thinks hes going to be the next Kobe Bryant.
This ain't the first "Manu will redefine the very essence of life v. Manu will suck a donkey" thread around. Just a little pre-emptive bashing to account for the inevitable, San Antonio based cult of personality soon arriving at a theater near you It all started when he couldn't hold the ball out safely way back in July............. for the record, Manu will suck a donkey.
TheFreak: HP and others are reacting against the fact that Ginobili has gone from an intriguing prospect to the trendy ROY pick with almost no new evidence as to his ability to penetrate against NBA defenders. In the Dish forum, and in NBA columns on ESPN... I didn't see the game, so I won't comment as to whether or not he showed good penetrating ability... but it's been a long time since I've seen so much hype with so little supporting evidence.
Not to belabor this any more...but how much have we seen of ANY ROOKIE'S ability to penetrate against NBA defenders. Does the term Rookie mean anything to you?
Everyone I would consider a star in this league. Here are some that played for the rockets. Francis Cuttino Dickerson Cassell These guys were all younger than 25 when the entered the league.
allen iverson cat mobley steve francis vince carter lamar odom baron davis just off the top of my head. pro league penetrators can do it from day one.
oh. this year's rookies that will be able to penetrate against nba defenders off the bat? 1) dejaun wagner (with ease...) 2) jay williams (though i think he's overrated) 3) caron butler (borderline, but i'll count him)
No confusion, all the players Verse and myself mentioned could get to the hole in their first year. Cassell was actually a key member of a championship team his Rookie year.
Look, I initially responded to what Freak said. He stated that we hadn't any more evidence other than what Ginobilli did PRIOR to the NBA that he could penetrate against NBA level talent. He used this fact to question the legitimacy of Ginobilli's status as a "ROY candidate". My (I thought not subtle) point was that we had no additional evidence of ANY of THIS YEAR'S rookie's ability to penetrate against "NBA Talent". Or play against NBA Centers, for that matter - so using his logic (or lack of it), and his criteria, there can be NO ROY prospects. I was simply trying to point out Freak's weak argument!
Another Spurs fan or apologist also predicted all-rookie team. An AP article has been quoted that already gave a fantastic description of a missed layup. On ESPN the blurb for the Spurs in the power rankings mentions "a european backcourt to die for." WTF!!! In the top five of rookies this season? Take another look at the top ten drafted- Ming, Williams, Gooden, Dunleavy, Wagner, Butler.... Manu is going to beat one of these guys to the all-rookie team? "Borderline All-Star" by the second half of next season? I mean, competition at the 2 isn't as bad in the WC as the East, but damn! What are you smoking? These are perfect examples of the over-hype that I (we) are sick of, posted right here in this thread by Spurs fans pretending to be reasonable. The media is on the bandwagon too, and that just makes it more frustrating. This only adds to the fire that was started with Tony "Jesus" Parker last season. Barf. Look, the kid has skills, and it's about damn time we saw a 1 from europe who can handle his own in the NBA. It's always a pleasant surprise when a late first rounder or second rounder comes in and makes a contribution- that's certainly how we feel about Cat and Kenny! But for the love of god I'm going to puke if in the next Rockets/Spurs game one of the "matchups to watch" is Parker vs. Francis! Please! The kid gets 4 assists and some 3ptrs in a game and the Spurs broadcasters cream their pants. It's nauseating. Now it's only worse, because now the Spurs fans have another late euro pick who isn't going to suck, so now they expect him to "surprise" like Parker did last year. Oxymoron. Look, in a nutshell, predictions that he won't be a star are no more or less founded than predictions that he will, and discussing what a "contributor" or "sparkplug" or "star" really is, is just moot anyway. Regardless: Spurs fans who hype their late-pick euro backcourt are annoying as hell, and this is a Rockets BBS dammit! HP had a great original post in here. He had fun talking some smack, and obviously had fun at the game. This was going to be a good thread till the Spurs fans got their little feelings hurt.
Let me play a little "senior" here if I may, to end this loooong thread: Wrong forum. This thread should be in the NBA forum. Though the subject of the title HP put was Mobley, it is actually about Ginobili. This thread has nothing to do with the Rockets.
Wow. Now the Spurs fan resorts to "all is relative" to keep the delusions of Ginobli's prospects as ROY alive. Come on, dude. Talk about a 'weak argument.'
