Playing center isn't just about size, its about mentality. You have to want to be a center. You have to be willing to take the punishment and intimidate people coming down the paint. Most power forwards today could start and play center in terms of physical ability, but they don't want to. They would rather post up some, drift out and shoot 20ft ers. Thats why centers are a dying breed because most of the candidates are playing the 4 spot. Antonio Davis plated center and made the all star team, Theo Ratliff played center and made the all star team. Zo has played the pivot despite being 6'9 maybe 6'10. I don't really think he wants to play center, just like Rasheed,Webber, and some of those other guys don't want that grind on a nightly basis. We know Taylor don't want to play the 5, hell, he doesn't even want to play the 4 as far as that goes. Griffin can be our rock, like Duncan and Webber at the 4 spot giving us pts,rebs, and blks. Thomas can bring the energy off the bench like Malik Rose, Gary Trent, and guys like that. Taylor and his contract is the odd man out. 13pts 5 rebs is ok for someone like bryan stith or stacy augmon, but when you look at those numbers and say thats for the power forward on your team, thats not good.
leebigz: I'm not talking about what shows up in the papers. I know this from people within the organization and from friends in the media who have told me as much. The Rockets were blown away by Taylor's skills and work ethic during the year last year. They also love his chemistry with the other guys. They think he was just starting to hit his stride the second half of last season. In fact, they were really worried that he would leave after last season and were even concerned that the drafting of Griffin could effect his decision. The Rockets wanted Taylor and told him so. Taylor wanted to stay and told them so. This is a very amicable pairing. No arguments there. But, Rudy loves those odd combinations. He always has and there is no indication he has any interest in changing. See above. They didn't bring Mo back just to give Griffin time because Mo got a 6-year contract. Griffin will be ready in 2 or 3 max. If they wanted a back up or protection for Griff, they could've signed Taylor for 3 years. They honestly believe that Taylor and Griffin can play on the floor together. I was even told by someone I trust that Rudy started diagraming plays with Griffin AND Taylor in mind right after draft night. Those line-ups I mentioned in the last thread didn't come from my imagination. I know for a fact those were legitimate combinations even if those weren't going to be starting rotations. They do like Thomas, but there is a difference. They believe that Taylor is a better player than Thomas, plain and simple. They also believe that Thomas is undersized at the 4 but is limited to that position. Rudy likes versatility. He likes guys who can play multiple positions and KT, for as good as he has been, cannot do that. They signed Taylor because they never believed that Thomas was a long-term solution at power forward. They still don't, but that doesn't mean they want KT gone. I still believe they think he can make a valuable contribution. I can pretty much guarantee you that Taylor will not be a sub when he comes back and if anyone is trade bait, it's KT based on the fact that he is in the last year of his contract (unless the Rockets pick up the 4th year option) AND he has played well this season. Players with shorter, smaller contracts and guys who are sign-and-trade material make the best trade bait, not guys in the second year of their long-term deal coming off a major injury like Taylor. I like KT and Mo T, but I just know that, even with the development of Griffin, Taylor is still a big part of their long-term plans. KT probably is as well but if you got a depth chart from the Rockets, KT would be behind both Taylor and Griffin if they were all healthy.
I thought this was funny. Anyway, I see next season as this: C- Griffin, Willis or Cato, Collier PF- Taylor, Thomas SF- Rice, Thomas, Morris SG- Mobley, Torres PG- Francis, Norris Is there any reason that Griffin can't start consistently at the 5? Is there any kind of defensive presence that Cato brings that Griffin doesn't? Look at some of the centers for good teams in the league: Dale Davis, Elden Campbell, Ervin Johnson, Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, Antonio Davis (last year), Dirk Nowitzki, Theo Ratliff, etc. The NBA is full of power forwards playing center. I don't see any reason that we can't do like the Mavs do with Dirk Nowitzki: start him at center on a regular basis, and bring in Bradley on the first dead ball against teams with big men like Shaq and Mourning. We can consistently start EG at the 5, and against Shaq-type centers we can bring in Cato early and slide EG down to the 4 spot. Or, we can accept that Cato can't guard Shaq either, and let Eddie cause matchup problems with his range. I also think we should train KT more at the 3 spot, so we can turn him into a Donyell Marshall style SF. With Kenny's footwork, quickness, and decent range he should be able to make a solid SF in the future when Rice retires. Kenny can be a dynaminute 6th man at both forward spots while Rice is still here, and after he leaves hopefully Kenny can start at the 3. Eddie, Mo, and Kenny are all fine players, and I think in the future it's fully possible to start all three up front.
Jeff, I'm not doubting your sources or you, but everyone and anyone know how this works. It's interesting that thecan say Taylor was better than Thomas after 1 season. taylor can in and to my estimation proved to be the same guy in La. He signed and said he was going to show people he could rebound and play D, but in the end he could do neither. Check and see how many times he was in foul trouble because of his lack of quickness. Check and see how many times Francis led us in rebounding. Maybe they do see him in their future, like they did Bryce Drew and Micheal Dickerson. Personally, just because you sign a guy to that kind of deal doesn't mean you won't trade him in a couple. I don't know why they were worried about losing Taylor because no one else wanted him just like the yr before. The only team that wanted him was Seattle and that was because they could get ewing and dump Bakers salary. By the way, Seattle gave him his payday 2 yr ago and every yr he comes up in trade talks. Those signings are good and all , but Rudy and Carroll are in the business to win games, period. If the right deal comes up next yr and Griffin plays very well, they will trade him, plain and simple. Maybe they can play together, who knows, but if Griffin can double double, whats the point of Taylor? Neither can guard the 3 and from the looks of it, neither will play down low. What advantage is it to have to big guys shooting jumpers? How is that creating mismatches? All I can say is we'll see, but don't believe for a moment that because Taylor has that contract that he can't get traded. Merry X-Mas.
I agree that Mo's not untouchable only in the way no one's really untouchable. If Mo doesn't put out like the Rockets expect, I'm sure he would end up on the block. But I believe Jeff in that I trust the Rockets know what they're getting with Mo and they're very happy with what they see. We may not be happy with Mo's rebounding, but I remember Mo stating to the press that Rudy specifically told him not to worry about it. Jeff, how much do you think the Rockets' perspective on EG may have changed since draft day? I do agree with lee that I don't see either Griff or Mo T effectively guarding the perimeter, although both seem like they have enough range to play the 3 offensively. I do however very much see the two players potentially making a solid 4-5 combo.
If anyone needs to change positions it's Taylor, not Griffen. Griffen is the guy with unlimited potential that could be a perrenial all star. So why are we trying to make him play a position that's not his natural position? It's just like when Minnesota got Joe Smith, they didn't try to force Garnett into playing center to make room for Smith. They made Smith adapt and play minutes at the 5 and 3. If anyone needs to adapt it's Mo. Taylor is the one that is an easily replaceable role player. He should be the one to have to either bulk up to play center or slim down to play small forward.
Not much. They wanted him all along and a big part of it was because they really thought he fit with last year's team including Taylor. I think the key thing to consider here is that the Rockets, like most of the rest of the league, are moving away from the belief that your team has to have a dominant center in order to compete. When you look around at the playoff-bound teams, there are only a handful who have a big man of note: Boston - Tony Battie - mainly a power forward who has been converted to play some center. Nets - Tod Todd MacCulloch - serviceable big man but nothing special Bucks - Joel Pryzbilla/Ervin Johnson - ho hum Pistons - Zeljko Rebraca - yawn Raptors - Hakeem Olajuwon - who? - with all due respect, though, not an elite center any longer Pacers - Jermaine O'Neal - solid young center Wizards - Brendan Haywood - just learning, but could be a talent Magic - Patrick Ewing - way over the hill Lakers - Shaq - best center in the league Spurs - David Robinson - still a solid big man Sacramento - Vlade Divac - a soft but talented center TWolves - Radoslav Nesterovic/Dean Garrett - they usually play Garnett or Smith at center...nuff said Mavericks - Evan Eschmeyer - he and stick get a few minutes but Nellie likes to go small Clippers - Michael Olowokandi - Kelvin Cato pt 2 Suns - Jake Voskuhl - the Suns have never had a real big man Trailblazers - Dale Davis - they have no legit center So, out of the top 16 teams, only 2 have legit all star calliber centers, 1 has a young up and comer and 4 have aging centers past their prime. The rest either play serviceable big men or power forwards converted to the position. The NBA is going more and more to lineups without top big men. There is no reason to think they Rockets won't employ that more often if Cato never really develops. If all Cato ever becomes is a decent shot blocker who can rebound on occassion, they won't ever need him to play big minutes at center and they will likely use smaller lineups, thus necessitating the need for guys like Taylor and Griffin to be used at the same time. leebigez: I know that anyone can be traded, but your assumptions are based on what you have seen lately and your feelings about Taylor as a player. I'm just telling you that the Rockets disagree with you at this point. Can that change? Of course, anything can. However, I have seen absolutely no indication that it has. They want Taylor around for the long haul and they want him to play with Griffin.
Jeff, I know what you're saying and I think we both have solid points. I just know from recently that about the only players the Rockets won't trade is Steve 1st, Griffin 2nd, and Cat 3rd. Those to me a re the only sure things. Players like Rudy and Carrol because they will never say anything bad about you in the media. Even after Hakeem ,Elie, and other former players takes shots at them, they kind of blow it off and go on about their business. I see you point about Taylor Griffin playing together since Van Horn/Martin plays together. I see what they might see, but we also have to think about economics also. Lets say we max out Steve, then in a couple we have to max out Griffin. Its possible we'll have 14million dollars worth of salary on the bench with Cato/Taylor. How will Les feel about this and the team might not even be a contender? He jumped in on the Rice situation, which I forgot about. Our crowd are sparse, we have a new building in 2003, i think they will be forced to do things to get this team on a championship type level quickly and having Cato killing salary and Rice and far as that goes Taylor and still be on the outside looking in is not good. I can't predict the future and maybe something happens that next yr this team can compete and win with the Kings, Lakers, and even the Clipps. I just hope the vision they have works out , because the worse thing to be in the nba is mediocre.
leebigez: By that logic, you would have to immediately move Kenny Thomas because he is going to want Shandon Anderson money after his contract is up. Would you rather cap out with Thomas or keep the contracts you are already committed to? If you believe Thomas is better, you still don't have that option because moving Taylor simply won't happen for at least a year due to his injury even if you wanted to and the chances of getting back equal value is almost nil. Cato is a non-issue in this debate because keeping him appears to be fairly certain unless the Rockets are able to find some takers. Rice has 3 seasons after this one left but Williams is gone after next season. As it stands, if the Rockets draft well, keep their own players and pick up 2 or 3 role players here and there, the could make the legitimate argument that they have what it takes, with time an experience, to compete for a championship. If Francis is the star we all think he is and he decides to stay in Houston, he, Mobley, Griffin and Taylor could form the nucleus of a pretty tough team. Assuming Morris develops, Norris remains consistent, Torres can develop as a utility man and Cato can give solid (if unspectacular) minutes, this would be a team that, with the addition of one other player, would be nine deep - that's also assuming Collier is a bust, which we simply cannot determine yet. You are assuming that Taylor is going to be "on the bench." What does that mean? Are you saying he won't start or that he will only get 10 minutes a game as a 9th or 10th man? Every indication from the Rockets is that he will not only start but play big minutes when he returns. Remember that, in 3 years, the oldest of those 4 players I mentioned will be Mobley at 30. Of the other four, the oldest would be Moochie at 31. For guys who, at that point, will have played together for 5 years or more, that is YOUNG. It seems to me that the reaction to Taylor is based more on the fact that he is "out of sight and out of mind" rather than not worthy of staying or doesn't fit the mix of players they have. If he comes back, averages 18ppg and has great chemistry on the floor with Griffin, Mobley and Francis, we'll all wonder why anyone considered moving him in the first place. We should probably let him come back from his injury, play for a while and then decide.
I'm a little concerned that keeping MoT, KT, Griffin, Mobley, Francis, Norris, Cato, etc. might turn us into Dunleavy's Trailblazers. Sure, they were talented, deep, and a little pricey. The lock-out year, they were definitely championship contenders; the next year too. But they were all ego-maniacs who thought they deserved more PT. If we keep everyone, don't you think there's a good chance we'll face some of those same ego & PT problems?
Toast, I think Mooch, Kenny, and even Cato are comfortable being second tier players. I wouldn't expect any of them to make a big stink about PT. The others will get all the PT they can handle, so it shouldn't be a problem. Portland had a bunch of former all-stars that were glued to the bench. Once you have acheived that much in your career, it is hard to let go. Just look at Hakeem. I think the youth and inexperience of all of these guys is an advantage in that respect, as is coming up on the same team together.
