Kobe tried hard in first half, scored 23 points and Suns had a 15 points. They were down 20+ 3 minutes into 3rd. Kobe didn't quit, they just got blown out by a much better team on road. No one expected Lakers to win that series before it started, that's not the case for Cavs.
You're right that the Lakers without Kobe aren't any more talented than Dallas, Denver, or Portland. But they're more talented than Dallas without Nowitzki, Denver with Melo, and Portland with Roy. Subtracting Lebron, last year's Cavs team is probably comparable to Detroit, a 27-win team. That team has Stuckey (comparable to Williams), Ben Gordon (at least as good as Jamison), Hamilton (better than Parker/Moon), and Ben Wallace (about as good as a washed-up Shaq). Look how far that got them. The Lakers (and possibly Dallas, Denver, and Portland) would all probably finish at least .500 without their best player.
Kobe quit. You're being a hypocrite here. Boston took a big lead on Cleveland in game 5 this year, and you're criticizing Lebron for quitting. The Suns took a big lead on the Lakers in that game 7 and you're defending Kobe. I was watching both of those games. Both guys quit. Lebron didn't seem to have his head in the game. Kobe seemed like he was trying to make a point to management about how bad his supporting cast was.
The Lakers would be a lot better than that. They were blitzing very good teams without Kobe and Gasol already took a much worse supporting cast to 50 wins when he was in Memphis. Kobe has TONS of help.. and now, finally, so does Lebron. This is gonna be a tough year for the Kobe nutlickers.
Lebron's athletic ability allows him to muscle over team after team during the season, making him a very good heavy lifter for the season. Kobe on the other hand is a player whose output is dependent more on his touch for the day, the best you can do is make him take "non easy shots" whether he makes them or not, is on him. Kobe's bad days are caused by Kobe (his misses in game 7 were shots you would see him drop on most days) whereas Lebron's bad days are caused by the defense. You can understand why someone like Jordan would see more in Kobe, Jordan being basically an off the ball scorer (something you rarely see today an off the ball superstar) whose strategy changed to "give me the ****ing ball" in the last 6 minutes.
the Lakers, pre-Pau, was a perennial playoff team. without Kobe as a teammates, Pau good as he was, never an all-star, no playoff. with Kobe as his teammate, Pau has become an all-star performer, 3 payoff Finals and 2 rings.
This is crap. I wish people would stop trying to make Kobe out to be some sort of God, as if he's not affected by the defense of mere mortal NBA players. Kobe shoots terribly against good defensive teams (like Boston the last two Finals and Detroit in '04) because they make him take bad shots. And Kobe is more than willing to take bad shots. His shot selection in game 7 was atrocious and the result was expected (well, not quite as historically bad as it turned out to be but it's hardly shocking he didn't even shoot 40%). Lebron is actually less affected by the defense because he doesn't take nearly as many stupid shots as Kobe. He is more likely to turn passive if well covered but he contributes in other ways.
Where do you do your research? Not only did Pau go to the playoffs multiple times as a Grizzly with almost no help, he was also an all-star once. His game has not changed with Kobe; he's just gotten a lot more hype because the Lakers are the #1 franchise in the NBA and they've been winning titles recently.
Kobe is a better shooter than Lebron, so he can take and hit more difficult shots than Lebron He has also never been as athletic and is on the wrong side of 30 so doesn't have the physical aptitude of Lebron to generate easier shots. Harder shots are obviously harder to defend against but it also (quite obviously also) leaves you more prone to bad stretches. People who play like that, when they're on, they're on, when they're not, they can sink themselves and their team, Jordan certainly did it a bunch of times (which is why Jordan would see Kobe as a better player). And umm, Kobe took harder shots in his game 5 23? point run than he did in game 7 (leaping single hand catch and falling wrist flick? back to back 3's from 30+ feet? vs his game 7 misses of weakly contested 18 footers? that's just Kobe, some days he can shoot from the stands, others he can be cold as ice) In comparison, LeBron played so badly against Boston's defense that he was accused of quitting on Cleveland (which is what it actually looked like....). So in summary, Kobe wins the finals mvp against Boston's defense, Lebron is accused of quitting against the Boston defense, but they effect Kobe more. Clearly no homers here.
Lebron is a smarter (or at least more disciplined) offensive player than Kobe, so he doesn't take low percentage shots. This is a pretty dumb statement here. Harder shots aren't harder to defend against. They're what the defense gives because guys don't normally make them. I can't recall MJ nearly shooting his team out of a game 7. Part of that is because his teams were so great that they only played one game 7 in their six championship years. The other part is that MJ was a smarter player than Kobe. This is exactly why the defense gives Kobe these shots. It's stupid for him to take them. He had a good stretch in game 5 where he was hitting those shots. However, his teammates became disinterested and stopped playing defense. The Celtics stretched their lead. In game 7, Kobe kept taking those bad shots and nearly single-handedly kept the Celtics in the game. Lebron probably did quit in game 5. The people who are saying that Lebron quit in game 6 and that Kobe is the better player are just too stupid to understand the contradictory nature of those statements. Lebron had a triple double and played lock down defense on one of the league's elite perimeter players in game 6. Kobe played a horrible game 7 and people are defending him because he hit one jumper in the fourth quarter. The fact that James is held to such a higher standard should be proof enough that he's the better player. And what's the deal with the homers comment? This is a Rockets message board and you think we're Cavs/Lebron homers for some reason?
you guys keep number crunching but some of you fail to see the point. Games 5 and 6 he was destroyed by his own fans and the media because at critical junctures of the game you can see him disinterested, you can see him trotting back on defense, you can see him being the last one to enter the halfcourt on offense, you can see him give the ball up when a mismatch is present. The fact that he wasn't even being aggressive when his team really neded it the most and shied away the pressure showed why he's not on the same level as Kobe. Sure Kobe shot 6 for 24, how many other people shot 50% from the field that game? That game 7 was an insane defensive clinic, it was incredibly hard to even get a shot off not to mention at least a handful of FG % killing attemps at the end of the shot clock he receives from teammates passes. You couldnt get a quality shot off in this game, defensive dominated both sides. And look beyond scoring he grabbed 15 rebounds, how many SGs can do that in a playoff game? He took it to the rim, absorbed contact and knocked his FTs down in the 2nd half and 4th and finally made a J. Did he have his best game in game 7? no but he did so many other things in that game other than scoring to help them win.
how many coattail riders average 25/5/5 as a 1a or a "no. 2option" and still win rings? can you look them up for me?
and Shaq only won when he teamed with another Hof baller and a Hof Coach, anything less, Shaq could not win a ring. Same for MJ. so were the ballers riding the coattail of PhilJax ??? the tandem of Shaq and Kobe, without Phil as the coach, could never reach the Final; likewise for the MJ/Pippen tandem.
Shaq + Anfernee Hardaway reached the finals without Phil Jackson. That must mean that Hardaway was better than Kobe, right?
Without the Pau giveaway, the Lakers wouldn't even have made the playoffs in 2008. The were sinking like a stone and going nowhere but down.
convenient speculation on your part. after all, that same team, pre-Pau, made the playoff the previous years
let me shut this thread down bc this is going in circles. here are some stats you can't juts damn ignore ok: past season: lakers' record and kobe's performances at the same time october: 1-1 (kobe averaged 26.5ppg, 7rpg, 2.5apg, 38% fg, 20%3s november: 12-2 (30, 5, 4, 51%fg) december: 12-3 (31, 6, 5, 51%) january: 12-5 (24, 5, 5, 41%) february: 4-3 WITH kobe (24.5pts, 5, 5, 44%) (4-0 WITHOUT) march: 10-6 (26, 5, 6 48%) april: 1-2 WITH kobe (22, 6, 4, 30%), 2-2 WITHOUT kobe playoffs: more in depth thunder: 4-2 (23.5ppg, 4, 4, 41%fg) - 3 below average games -> lakers went 2-1 -won game 1 87-79: kobe 21 pts, 6-19fg (32%), 2 boards, 3 assists -won game 5 111-87: 13 pts (4-9), 3 boards, 7 assists clearly very dominant v. utah and phoenix. he played like a top 1-2 player here, i can't argue with that. great performances. boston: 4-3 - clearly 2 subpar games -won game 3: 29 pts (10-29, 35%), 7 boards, 4 dimes -won game 7: 23 pts (6-24, 25%), 15 boards, 2 diems so in the entire playoffs, kobe played a total of 5 subpar games out of 23, which is a great rate. the lakers went 4-1 in those 5 games kobe played below his usual standards. FYI: pau gasol had 3-4 "subpar" games (based on fg% bc he's usually a great efficiency player) in the playoffs games also. lakers won all of those. so obviously as you can see, kobe or pau "rarely" are the lakers' best 2 players. but clearly they will have bad/subpar games. but clearly, the lakers' supporting cast more than make it up for them as they clearly can with without their 2 best players playing at their best at all times. now let's go to lebron: based on fg%, he had 3 bad games (last 3 games v. boston) and they lost all 3. losses overall in playoffs: lebron put up 25, 10, 7 on 41%fg. take it how you wanted. overall: lakers can win with kobe or pau having off nights (one time together - game 7 v. boston both struggled mightily offensively). they have players who have playoff experience to step up (name dfish, artest). lebron: if he has anywhere close to a bad night, 95% the cavs are going to lose.
Well, Scottie Pippen averaged 21/8/7 and took on the challenge of defending the other team's best perimeter player every night (something Kobe didn't do even when he was the #2 option, Rick Fox did it). Clyde Drexler put up 21/7/5 in the playoffs as the clear #2 option in Houston in 1995. Just to clarify, I don't think Kobe was a coattail rider. He was a key contributor to those three championship teams. He was the second best player. I was just trying to make the point that Lebron isn't a coattail rider, either. Can we come back to this post next off-season after seeing what numbers James puts up? If he puts up better than 20/5/5 and the Heat win a championship, will you admit that he isn't a coattail rider?
