MJ: "I would never have called up Larry, Magic & say lets get together."

Yeah, the Lakers were Kobe's team in 03 and 04. We saw how well that worked out, didn't we?

They were Shaq's team in 00, 01, 02. Those seasons ended with championships.

 

he never played in the Eastern Conference, either.

 

If you go back and re-read my post, you'll notice that the name Lebron James is not mentioned at all. I wasn't comparing what Jordan did to what James just did. I was just saying that people can't really say that MJ wanted to do it with no help because MJ actually retired when the team was going to let his help walk.

 

there are lots of reasons MJ may have retired...this is probably the first time i've heard it's because they were going to let pippen and jackson walk...especially since both were still in Chicago while Jordan was whiffing at curveballs in Birmingham.

which reminds me...my 10 year old is reading this book right now:

 

2010 Cavs record against the East: 38-14 (0.731)
2010 Cavs record against the West: 23-7 (0.766)

2009 Cavs record against the East: 40-12 (0.769)
2009 Cavs record against the West: 26-4 (0.867)

Lebron wasn't leading the Cavs to 60+ wins because they were playing a softer schedule in the East. His team actually played better against the West (as did the Lakers in 2009).

 

the only part of your post that's relevant....and i didn't know that...wouldn't have guessed that.

 

I can't find anything to back me up on this (other than a brief bit in the MJ wikipedia article), but I clearly remember hearing at the time that MJ was retiring (the second time) largely because the Bulls were not going to bring back Pippen, Rodman, and Jackson. The NBA lockout also played a role.

 

edit...ohh..you're talking about the second time.

geez, by then he had won 6 titles.

but it wouldn't surprise me...no one is saying that anyone can win championships alone.

i don't think lebron would be drawing this level of criticism for sticking with the Cavs another 7 or so years and winning 6 titles...and then leaving after that.

 

the lakers didn't even win 60 games last year. kobe would never get 60+ wins with that roster cavs and get HCA throughout the playoffs.

i think it's a fact for now that lebron is at least the better player in the reg. season for the past 2-3 years.

playoffs is up to debate depending on what criteria you use. you want to use rings as an end all be all, then it's kobe. and we can go on and on about this as we are right now.

FYI: kobe has really only one historic reg. season in his career (the 35.4ppg season) and his PER/efficiency was at its highest (28). and that wasn't even close to jordan's or lebron's best years. not even close.

 

if you follow sports long enough and i'm sure you have, criticisms are always there for star players. you win, it'll disappear.

until we see how the big 3 play and how dominant of a role lebron still play on that team, it's all up for debate.

if we go by past history of what all 3 have done up to this point and judging from their past few seasons, lebron's the best player in the L. so it's still up to him to write his legacy, and it may be a different path from jordan.

just b/c a lot of people are criticizing lebron's decision NOW doesn't mean 10 years from now opinions won't change.

 

Would they have won the series without their contributions? I think not. It's no coincidence that the Bulls success rose as those players got there and matured.

 

Wow! The Cavs overspending ways sure worked out for them! I mean they won a ring and LBJ just signed an extension....oh wait

The fact is, players like LBJ, Kobe, Wade etc. all live in the moment. They want to win, and they want to win now. However, if you really want to keep your player happy, you don't gamble continually on high risk high reward moves, which is what the Cavs kept doing. They should have sat down, and realized that they had a 7 year window to keep James, and made moves that would pay off a couple of years down the road, like acquiring talent and stashing them overseas, buying draft picks, and staying under cap so they can get talent for capspace, which is what Minny (got Beasley for free) and Thunder have done.

As to what players they shouldn't have signed, the biggest culprit is Larry Hughes, whom they signed to 15 million per year. After that they signed Sideshow BOb for the same amount we'll be paying Scola, and traded for Mo Williams who's making the same amount of money as Kevin Martin and Danny Granger.

THey also should have drafted better, as boobie gibson and James are the only players I think they drafted that became part of the rotation for the past 7 years. 2/14 is ridiculously bad.

 

thus, this thread.

 

Of course they made contributions, but I doubt they were enough to say that Jordan needed Pippen to get past the first round in 1988.

 

Are you really saying Shaq was a top 50 player while playing with Cleveland.


Goodness arguing with some of you is just pointless at this point.

One guy bringing up Sebastian Telfair as a way to say LeBron had more help.

And now you're telling me that Shaq played like an all-time top 50 player while playing for the Cavs.

 

MJ retired when he was 35 --- that was the whole point of my post. You may not have mentioned LeBron, but looking at the thread we're both in, he's certainly in the context of what everyone is discussing.

You're still trying to compare a 35 year old Jordan to a 25 year old LeBron when you say "people can't really say that MJ wanted to do it with no help because MJ actually retired when the team was going to let his help walk." He. Was. 35. You can't say, "well MJ retired when he wasn't going to have help so he kinda did the same thing" when the man was 35 years old when he retired. Plain and simple.

Furthermore, MJ didn't have "help" until he won a championship. PJax was not a "great coach" until he won a championship. If the Cavs would have won it all this year, we'd all be talking about what great help LBJ had and what a good coach Mike Brown is.

Are you kidding me? Of course it didn't work out for them -- it's easy to bash in hindsight. But the Cavs, WITHOUT LEBRON'S HELP, brought in as much talent as they possibly could. I think we'd both agree that they would have been a better team with Ariza at the SF spot instead of Jamario Moon -- why didn't that happen? Oh right, LeBron.

The Cavs gambled on high-risk, high-reward? What? Like when? Jamison is the only trade you can point to and say that -- and when it happened, everyone in the NBA thought it was adding another weapon to an already stacked team. "Acquiring talent, buying draft picks, staying under the cap" -- those are such general suggestions and a cop out to the argument. Please, explain to me specifically who was available that they should have traded for. Who should they NOT have traded for? Which draft pick should they have bought and who should they have taken? Do you see the problem with throwing out vague generalizations like that? I'm sure EVERY team would like to stay under the cap, while buying draft picks and having all these assets -- that's the IDEAL scenario.

But when you're fighting for a CHAMPIONSHIP, you don't win one being under the friggin cap. How can you guys not get that? Your "7 year window plan" consist of the Cavs never signing any "expensive" role players to keep their flexibility so they can sell all the top FAs that have been available on the great city of Cleveland? How much more would they have lost under your "plan" then the direction in which they went? I'd say a helluva lot more.

Mo Williams is an above average PG. Varejao is an above average big man. Without either of these guys, there's 0% chance the Cavs have the best record in the NBA and it's questionable if they would even have HCA.

It's easier to sit back years later and say, "The Cavs are r****ded!! They should have drafted Aaron Brooks!!" -- when 24 or so other teams also passed on drafting AB. The draft is a crapshoot and the Cavs have been in the playoffs almost every year LBJ has been there -- meaning they've had late draft picks, which are even more of a gamble.

 

I was under the impression that Lebron was consulted on all personnel decisions in an effort to keep him happy.

If that's the case, everything you said is wrong.

 

I can understand for Wade but Bosh being compared to Bird and Magic??

 

Its DWade's Team and LBJ fans will have to deal with it until Dwade gives it up, gets old, gets run out of the city.......

Get over it. Once the season ends and LBJ will still the best sidekick ever to Dwade.

Nobody ever said Dwade is the better player, but he is clearly the better leader or at least being the most vocal and the only player not leaving his team.

Good Job Aquaman, you finally found a home with Flash.

 

In any case this trio is not going to win anything. They teamed up in the 2006 world championships and they had a better supporting cast than this Heat roster and they came away with a Bronze medal. Obviously its not automatic as it seems

Kobe arrived to Team USA and they win gold in 2007 easily in the FIBA Americas and 2008 Olympics

I'm not saying FIBA = NBA but just saying you have to adjust your style of play and you need to sacrifice and draw clear lines so that everyone knows their role.