The difference between Mike Dunleavy and Larry Brown is Larry Brown chooses to leave while Mike Dunleavy is forced to leave. What's the difference? You say Larry Brown takes it as far as he can and then quits before he gets the blame. This is true to a degree. Larry Brown quits on his own terms when teams fail to live up to his expectations. When Larry Brown takes over, you are almost guaranteed of getting the most out of your players. It's interesting that none of the teams that Brown "abandoned" won a championship except San Antonio and that was 100% due to getting Tim Duncan in a short lived strike season. David Robinson didnt win the championship, Tim Duncan did. What really happens is Brown takes a job he sees as a challenge and does what he can with it. Once he realizes that there is nothing left to be done, he moves on. The difference betwen a Larry Brown and a Mike Dunleavy is that Brown commands such respect he can deal with the enigmatic Iverson for 6 years before deciding he's had enough. Any other coach wouldve been fired before that time or tried to hang on until the wheels fall off, ala Dunleavy at Portland. Let's look at the Rockets: The Rockets are 2 giant steps removed from a championship. They must first make the playoffs, then win in the playoffs. The coach they need is the one who can drive this team full blast in the next 2 years. I don't care what happens after that because if everything falls into place the next 2 years, you can get a new coach to take them to the next level. With Brown, you know he'll kick some serious butt. With Dunleavy, you dont know what will happen. The players may or may not listen to him. Yes he may stick around longer but so what. All that means is we'll have to force him out instead of him resigning. Everything else being equal, Id much prefer to take a more experienced and better coach with a history of success who may bolt than a decent coach who may hang around longer.
RIET, make no mistake ... Brown was going to be forced to leave for Larry Bird had he not quit. Brown was 39-43 before Bird got them back to 58 wins. That team quit on Brown...the guys methods are not flawless. quit preaching to me about Larry Brown. He is my favorite NBA coach, from a practice and game plan standpoint. And I am not shy at all about having a coach start making demands of Steve Francis. I don't think they ever need to make it public, but I trust Brown more than anyone to do that. You can't say that you don't care what happens after 2 years. We *must* sign Yao Ming after two years. The coach must not quit. imo, Brown must view Yao's career more important than his own. I don't think he looks at his players like that. Coach Brown is the best coach in many respects, but the guy makes me nervous. For instance, he might alienate Francis. Now, Francis would probably deserve it, if it happened, but don't drop his trade value in petty public arguments. Say what you want about Dunleavy,,,I don't think he's the weak coach you say he is...but he will keep his disciplining in house and will not lose trade value. Also, 50 wins makes us 6th seed this year. If you don't think that can't happen in the normal order of things wrt Yao Ming's preparation and energy level versus him being tired, and that it takes a great coach to pull off, and only a great coach, then you weigh the value of NBA coaches much more than I.... only one guy can get do it?? r e a l l y Plus, the idea that there is only one available coach who can possibly get us to a 6th seed kinda depresses me. If that is the case, then why was the majority of BBSers predicting 48-52 wins last year?
This is why it's imperative someone else is the GM. Philly's biggest mistake was letting Brown pretty much run players in and out. His inability to find the right combination and picking players like Larry Hughes led to his own demise. He wet his bed and let someone else clean up the mess. The fact Les and CD met Brown together says a lot. We'll see about that. Sure Dunleavy got a crappy hand with Whitsett'swheeling and dealing. Think about this, that Portland team was loaded but he couldnt make it work. He couldnt make the talented but incredibly selfish team do what he wanted them to. That should be a red flag right there. The difference between Brown and Dunleavy is that Brown would leave while Dunleavy started doing anything he could to save his job. I think the latter is far worse. I don't think only one coach can do it. However, I believe Brown can do it faster and better than any of the other choices. It's a good job but not the only job. It's not like we can pick from 30 people. And even if we could, Brown would be in my top 3 or 4. Depending on the teams and which ones you beat, 50 wins does not always translate to the 6th seed. If you win more games against quality opponents, it brings you up and takes other teams down. The real issue is which coach can turbo boost this team and transform the motley crue into a bonafide playoff contender the fastest? It's Larry Brown.
I agree. But you can't hit the turbo boost forever, you burn out the engine and the tires....to extend your metaphor. OK, that was too easy. I just don't want a revolving door of coaches for Yao Ming. Also, blame Francis all you want if he doesn't get it and Brown starts calling him out in public, and Francis's whittle head can't handle it and he flakes...whatever you want to call such a scenario of demanding Francis change or "he's out," alienation *is* the coach's problem., just like you said it is Dunleavy's fault. The coach must never let that happen. The only way to make up for that is protecting trade value, and if a player flakes, trade value always drops. There is a chance Francis could flake under private (and certainly, public) hectoring by a coach.
Ya no question about it. This past season, the 4th seed T-Wolves won 51 games and the 5th seed Lakers won 50 games. The Rockets under Brown esp when Francis is moved to the 2 spot would have no problems winning this many games. If I had to make a prediction, I'd say probably 52-53 games; I view 50 games as the minimum. Larry Brown's tactics will be huge esp for Yao Ming. There absolutely will not be a bunch of standing around and watching Yao when he receives in the post or isolation jacks by the guards before other players touch the ball. Yao's true potential will be realized when there is more movement away from the ball, when post/re-post and various strategies are utilized. Also, this whole argument will be moot pretty soon. The info Clutch posted on the frontpage link is very good for those who want Brown in Houston.
Some valid points...There are coaches out there who are much better at making bad teams good than good teams great. However Brown has won i tall, with Kansas, which is even more of a winner takes all process of elimination than in the NBA. I agree with you to an extent that his decision might say a lot about what kind of challenge he is looking for. All that said, however, and there are only a handfull of coaches who have won it all in the last couple fo decades...and all have had muc more talent than Brown, except possibly Rudy T's 1st ring, and Brown has never had a player as dominant as hakeem was that year. Still, good argument.
Well, all offensive sytems are evolutionary...For example Roy Williams break offense last year was much better than Dean Smith's, on which it was based...does that make Williams a better coach? A midget can see farther than a giant if he's standing on the giant's shoulders...doesn't make him taller though. Coaching is a progressive orgamnism...There may be people today who run the West Coast offense better than Bill Walsh did, but none of them are anywhere near his level of football genius. But my second point would be this: Brown's greatest strength isn't a particular offense...he doesn't really have one. His strength is his ability to adapt his system to the players he has, make maximum use of the stars' strengths, while maintaining his overall philosophy. If you want a system, then Tex Winters is about the best coach in the biz, based on results... I am amazed that you don't think that Brown hasn't proven that he 'belongs' in the NBA. I don't know what your criteria is...rings? In which case 90% of the NBA coaches don't belong here, and never will. I agree that his long term stamina is an issue...but I feel that it's also an issue with Shaq, but of you offered me Shaq or Eric Dampier for nothing, I'll go with Shaq. I don't see that Tim Duncan is available.
HP...I don't get why you keep mentioning that he quit on Robinson 'in his prime',,,,Would it somehow be more understandable if Brown quit when Robinson wasn't any good anymore..One thing about Brown that usually even his critics agree; he actually means it when he says that his leaving a team will help the team, if only for the sake of a breath of fresh air. I don't agree with him on many of those occassions,but he believes it. He doesn't get out of Dodge when the talent leaves, a la Jackson...he gets out when he feels either that he has done as much as he can, or that this challenge has been conquered it as miuch as he can. And re: Brown vs. Dunleavy...there is a reason one sits on the coaching shelf for a year and a half and one does so for maybe a week. One other thing that Brown brings that JC or MD don't is his name and rep...I don't mean with players or fans, I mean with owners and GM's...So he has the weight to back up his decisions, even the tough ones. Most coaches get the elbow if they switch Iverson to shooting guard and The Answer declares he won't play for that team anymore...Brown is one of the few who can basically do what he wants with the assurance that he'll still be there when the dust settles. He has earned that, and it is a valuable commodity. If he comes here and gets into it with Francis, he will be backed to the wall. Can you say the same about Dunleavy?
Very well said. Don't get me wrong...if someone of the calibre of Brown weren't available, I'd be pretty positive about Dunleavy. He's a solid coach. But there's a Rolls Royce in the driveway...I think that some are looking in the hood, noticing that the spare tire is a little flat, and then wondering if the Corolla isn't a better car because it's spare is in better shape. I think we are in danger of out-thinking ourselves...Brown's available...get Brown. Period.
MacBeth, Larry Brown quit on Robinson about 40 games into Robinson's 3rd year. His 3rd YEAR!!! sheesh. That is way way too early. That team was loaded with talent. Larry Brown quit on New Jersey 6 games before the playoffs. SIX GAMES before the PLAYOFFS!!!!!!!! Larry Brown's Pacers quit on him, and Larry Bird had one of the biggest turnarounds ever. A top team absolutely quit. The reason Dunleavy gets blamed for that and Larry Brown doesn't is because Brown is the better coaching mind and teacher. But the results are largley the same. That doesn't make him the best selection for this job. to me, the deal comes down to if Larry Brown won't accept CD's role, that will be the reason we don't hire him. Like RIET said, Brown needs a strong GM to keep him in line...for a reason. The coach can be flakey. As for Calipari, at 44, his days aren't over. And the first is not always the best. You should study what these coaches do. He is not a copy cat of Brown anymore than Coach K is a copycat of Bobby Knight. Calipari can inspire, instruct, and position players to reach top potential as well as anyone. What he did at UMass is phenomenal for a 30yr old.
Whoa! Ouch! I don't mean to pick on you. But, pleezzee, HP. Do you really believe what you said? Or do you just want to spoil the warm feeling created by the thread opener? John Calipari? You mean UMAS or the Nets? One was beaten by my alma mata, the OSU Cowboys, an underdog in the Sweet Sixteen. The other team had simply been in the dog house for years, but with one of the highest salaries for an NBA coach at that time, at $3 mil a year straight out of UMAS. Coach K. Hum. Have you heard around NBA lately, with regard to taking Duke boz early in the first round. They were all overrated (not my words). Whoa! HP. Where is your Sever Acute Rocketball Savy when we need it?
jxu777, the statement you quoted got turned into a statement that I advocate college coaches for the Rockets. That was not the intent. My intent was to compare Brown to Knight as being flakey, and coaches like that often produce better proteges than themselves, because the proteges are more cool headed and better at player management over time. The point was to address Dunleavy has being more cool and classy, and Brown to be a "genius" but a flake. I did not mean to say that their NCAA proteges should be NBA coaches, much less for the Rockets. btw: I do consider Calipari's first shot to be close to Brown's first crack. They both returned to college ranks, and Calipari knows it's best to just stay there, while Brown appears to view both levels the same, and will simply take the best position.
i just re-read this. Flipped over it at first, because, you know, that was probably your longest paragraph ever, and I even cut some of it off. hehe anyway, you said Dunleavy "started doing anything he could to save his job." That's your opinion, man. He was a year off Coach of the Year, and pretty much one made FG from a freaking title, and the next year they win 50 games. Everything to "save his job." Why can't someone say, "everything because it *was* his job." sheesh. Your interpretation is all about myth building, imo. Ever since a 30 yr old Brown landed the UCLA job with a senior Kiki Vandeweghe and a bunch of freshmen, upset Aguirre in the 2nd round (which imo DePaul was always overrated), and got a clear ride via other upsets to the finals...facing a 4, 6 and 6 seed until Louisville wins, That's cool, and Brown rocks for that, but what did he do....he quit after just one more year. ever since then, he has this rep of being a teacher of youngsters, since Vandy took some freshmen to the finals. Then you just dismiss Calipari doing very much the same thing in a more challenging environment, because he only made it to the Final Four rather than winning in with "Miracles" "Manning" and "Five Fat Guys." Well, Massimmino and Ed Pinckney were the biggest upset in modern time...so, miracles happens. Anthony won the title this year, no? Is his coach now a legend? Don't buy the rep, man, to some superman status. It's not that hard to have Reggie run around a picket fence of picks. Bird is the one who got them to the Finals, and without Smits. Brown is not a genius on Bobby Knight's level, but like Knight, Brown chases people away, just ask Danny Manning and his father.
man, my lesdyxia gets the better of me sometimes. Brown was 40 at UCLA, not 30 like Calipari was at UMass.
It's not my interpretation that's important. What's important is how others in the league view Brown, especially the Rockets players. From today's Houston Chronicle: This is the difference. Steve Francis isn't calling Mike Dunleavy. Steve Francis is calling Larry Brown. When you have impressionable young players searching for guidance, you need someone they respect. The more respect they have, the more they'll listen. Consider Allen Iverson's refusal to practice and Steve Francis' willingness to stay at the gym and work on his game. Also, Steve understands he can't be completely selfish because he doesn't have as much leverage as AI had. AI did not have a counterpart like Yao who is considered as important to the franchise as Steve. This is why Larry Brown will get us the farthest the fastest. He will carry us to 50+ wins and the team will revere him. Once the players buy into a system and really believe the coach is invincible, that's when the team becomes awesome and goes 100%. That's the difference between great college coaches and great NBA coaches. All the great college coaches can do that but very few NBA coaches can pull it off. You talk about Calipari and his UMass team. Calipari did a great job at UMass. No doubt. However, he started at a lowly program with absolutely no expectations. There weren't any Dr. J's on campus. However, once he built his little machine, the students absolutely loved him and did everything he asked. He got what great college coaches get, buy-in to the program. Then what happened? His ego started taking over. He took the NJ job and quickly found out this wasn't college. Players didn't like his abrasive, combative, and egotistical personality. The pressure was on and he yelled a racial epitaph to one of the local reporters. This was no UMass. He couldnt get 100% commitment from the team and wasnt getting the support from the media. Calipari is what he is. A good college coach and a mediocre NBA coach. NBA coaches are fulltime strategists, scout, baby sitter, and psychologist. Phil Jackson's mind games work. When John Calipari did it, people saw him as mainpulative and overbearing. Now Calipari is in Memphis. Now he's back to his comfortable environment. 18 year olds won't challenge his authority or his ego.
I agree with everything RIET said. Of course I am far away from everything, but from all I have read, I am 80 % sure that Larry Brown will be our coach next season.
RIET, The news from Dawson is good news. I would love to have Larry Brown give us a real commitment. I like that Francis is calling. Things look good. What is best about it is Brown likes Dawson and seems like he'll let him be his boss. Like I said before, Brown was my #1 choice from Day 1. I just don't like how he ups and resigns on Iverson. His history just is getting too much for me. But if he'd grow up and act like a finisher for once in the pros (in the sense of sticking with a team and evolution of players) like Riley, Rudy, Popovich or Sloan, and even Dunleavy (who wasn't trying to save his job, he was trying to finish his job), then I'd have zero worries at all. It is looking good...and that *IS* good news for the Rockets. btw: Your Calipari example defines Larry Brown, imo. I read that, and you are describing exactly how I feel about Brown. I'm not the only who thinks this. The league does enough for every Chronicle journalist to already mention the history of flakiness and alienation that Brown has. imo, Calipari is a great motivator. I actually believe Brown has a bigger ego and alienates players faster. Iverson is the type of guy who can take it. Didn't it seem to you like Iverson knew Brown couldn't control him, and it wasn't really going to effect his ability to play in Philly. Brown actually said he had to improve as a coach, and the way he dealt with Iverson is a sign of his improvement. btw btw: I'll say it again; Calipari is 44yrs old. At age 44, Brown was quitting on New Jersey 6 games before the playoffs. Age for age, Brown does not have the maturity and wits of the intangible elements of being a coach that Calipari has.
Stats from the '92-'93 Clippers: D. Manning (5th season): 23 pts, 6.6 reb, 51% fg, 80% ft Ron Harper (8th season): 18 pts, 4.5 ast, 5.3 reb Mark Jackson (6th season): 14.4 pts, 8.8 ast Ken Norman: 15 pts, 7.5 reb, 51% fg Stanley Roberts: 11 pts, 6 reb Also on the club: Gary Grant, Loy Vaught My only question is how did this team not win more than 41 games? Rudy wins 43 with less talent than that Clipper team had, and he gets run out of town. Yet the same people who hate Rudy are creaming themselves to get Larry Brown in here. Something doesn't compute. Oh, and David Robinson turned the Spurs around, not Larry Brown. That is plain as day.
I think that's quite an interesting stat. What's also interesting is that Brown's 2 year tenure was the best 2 years in the Clipper organization for the past 25 years. It's ok Mrs. Rudy T. (aka The Freak), we know how you feel. Hope your husband feels better.
