Minister beaten after clashing with Muslims on his TV show

1) What research have you done yourself regarding these questions? I'd like to know where you get your information from so that I can understand what you consider as reliable and what you don't. It will help me answer your questions.

2) Just so that I can understand the question.. Can you tell me what you're asking please? Are you asking if the Qura'an never existed or are you asking if there are varying versions or are you saying thatthere is no proof that it existed?

3) There are disputes outside of everything, even a democratically elected president. Do you find it insignificant that no one differs in the Qura'an but that other religious/historic books have been/are being disputed today? What about that there are religious/historic texts that have been significantly revised over the years and continue to be revised? If these things don't mean anything to you, i understand. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from.

4) Do you believe in Dinosaurs? Evolution? God? The Devil? Spirits/ghosts/Demons? I'm honestly tryingto figure out where you're coming from. It would aid me greatly in answering you.

 

I don't know what anecdote you are referring to, but I just spent 10 days in an Arab/Muslim country and things were just fine. One thing I noticed there was constant anti-Israel propaganda in the press, though.

 

LOL - you have got to be joking the Quran is so vague on these subjects it is completely open to interpetation.

Mohammed also said everything in life was created in pairs.......while we know that is not true either.

Mathloom, you believe, I get it, lots of Muslims like you are willing to suspend actual scientific data in an attempt to prove Mohammed knew something about it, or even worse twist vague references in an attempt at attaching them to actual scientific method as a way to point at it later and go.."See...he did know"......

I mean honestly.....Well, ok...whatever.....

DD

 

I'll consider any source reliable that presents a sound argument.

I am asking about the original Quranic manuscript. Does it exist to this day? If not, your claim that it is as authentic as any other text is wrong.

But there are disputes about the Quran. By the way, Orthodox Jews believe that the Torah today is identical to the one given at Mt. Sinai, so your claim of Quranic exceptionalism needs to be further substantiated.

My personal beliefs are irrelevant. We're talking about claims you made about the Quran. Are you able to defend those claims or not?

 

So far his answer has been "I believe"

I guess my biggest issues is seperating Islam as an ideology from Islam as a religon.

To me Islam as an ideology is inherently dangerous to civilized society, while Islam as a religion or belief system is fine.

But how do you seperate the two? And if the answer is you don't, then it has to be reasoned that Islam in itself is dangerous.

DD

 

Dada, Come on now. You are being absolutely ridiculous about this. The Hadith is not God's word. This is factual - there is LITERALLY no Muslim who believes this. None. Not even obscure sects. No one. Never. Ever.

Essential supplements and clarifications, absolutely. But hadith has given us the door to adapt to times in three ways when something in the Hadith loses its relevance:

1) Qiyaas. This means scholar compare it to a multitude of Hadiths and similar circumstances to determine a new right way.

2) Ijmaa. This means scholars in majority vote for a change for things in Hadith that become outdated or which are not applicable to Hadiths.

3) Ijtihad. This means, in absence of the first two, each person decides what's right based on all the knowledge he/she can seek. Not just what you know, but everything you seek.


There is NO adjusting the Quran to the "times" and any Muslim who tells you there is an apologist and doesn't kow what they're talkign about. The Quraan in itself has flexibility, but we can never ever go beyond the flexibility provided.

For example, the Quraan says to women cover yourself in certain areas. We can never move away from this, ever. You can decide HOW to cover at some point where Qiyaas, Ijmaa and Ijtihad is applicable, but you can never bend this rule further. Understand that the Quraan said that it is applicable to ALL times. We believe God said this.

Obviously youthink we should bend it to ease society's stereotypes - you think this was made by people for society. But don't forget that we believe this is God's word and we will not deviate from it.

What you CAN expect is once people are TAUGHT about it PROPERLY that the violence will dissapear. Because in Islam there is no violence excpet in self-defense. You are a perfect example of what happens when Islam is learned the wrong way - it becomes distorted. The danger in this is that the distorted view is transferred and manipulated.

I really urge you to stop throwing things out based on poor sources. The things you put out there are always biased, and always clearly the extremist view of the extremist side. Just do some good research if you care. We don't all have to be agnostic to be happy. We just have to understand each other. Let's just understand each other. I get it, it's easy to attack Islam today. Tomorrow, when there is a child who grew up to rule this world, and all he heard from you is "I don't care what you think, here are some biased sources to prove you're wrong, we need to take your oil and wipe you out", do you think he will show you mercy? Do you think this is a happy person? Do you think he will be non-violent? No. He will be Osama Bin Laden. He will be Saddam Hussein. Let me tell you something, that will be a **** day for me and it will be a **** day for you too. Why don't you want to avoid that day as much as I do?

 

Right, but he was making scientific/historical claims, so that won't quite cut it.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
only meant to quote the first line in DD's post

 

Didn't God make women naked? Did God say.....ooops...you need to cover up my work?

Yeah, well, the Greeks believed in Zues too, and they had about as much in proof as you do.....

There are many problems with Islam, you mentioned a big one above in the coverings of women, that was a cultural issue, not a religious one, but Mohammed made it religious by saying it came from God. I don't believe God cares about that at all, as he made the female form...right?

It is about time, all the other worlds religions had to fend for themselves and they reacted just as violently to it as Islam, because religion (yes Islam) is about power, always has been always will be......and the reason that Islam is under attack today is it is clashing with cultures outside it's protected borders, and people that have the freedom of choice are raising their hands up and calling attention to the inconsistencies of it.

Get used to it, the Muslim faith will be tested, and it will have to adapt, or it will go the way of the rest of the world's religion, because once people get the freedom to think for themselves, and have a life that is worth living, they leave the Mullahs and religious leaders behind, or at least minimize their impact in their lives.

Wait, what? So you are saying a Muslim child is going to rule the world? I hope you are not saying this.....but if you are...that is a big problem, the rest of the world does not want to be Muslim.....

Funny, how you are posting nothing but biased stuff and how do you know the websites are wrong, when you are in a country that doesn't allow you to even read them and come to your own reasoned conclusions?

Better to just believe what the Mullahs say...right?

I anxiously await you proving that Mohammed was scientifically precient on anything - and for you to actually own up where you are posting from...which country etc, for context.

And I will say it again if you can't seperate the Ideology from the religion then Islam is inherently dangerous to progressive society.

DD

 

Mathloom,

What is that penalty for apostosy in Islam?

DD

 

I will answer our questions tomorrow as I have to get some sleep now. Just so you ignore that I don't ignore these things.

I do need you to answer the last question though as it is essential. I want to know what you consider a requirement to believe something. I am trying to convince you, not the world, and there are no governing set of standards so we will forever argue about what is adequate proof and what is not. I need to know your standards.

 

I don't mean this in a rude way but just to give relevance to what you are saying... What you believe regarding God is worthless to me as you decide what God wants yourself and that can be whatever you want for the sake of argument. Those are your personal beliefs but really useless in a debate centred around comparison. If we are discussing Islam and what it states, then I don't get why you even brought up these specific beliefs.

As for the covering issue, women were covering in Jesus' time as well. God descended the religions and prophets with varying messages (strength and scope-wise) because we are too weak to make the sudden change. As an example, people still drank openly during Muhammad PBUH's recitations of the Qura'an and this was fine by him until God commanded otherwise. The Qura'an is definitely the strictest of the holy books and this is, according to islam, by design. Women could run around naked in Adam's time, but this became less and less acceptable as God's message came closer to completion. It's called mercy.

2) I meant if a Muslim child grows up to rule the world. Nevermind what you want, the whole world doesn't have to be Muslim for the ruler to be Muslim. lol. Please enlighten me if you have one of your handy websites which claims this.

3) You can believe what you want to believe about Islam being dangerous. I personally think your conclusion is poor at best. It's also inherently clear that you haven't ever lived with Muslims, nor have you ever studied their religion properly. It's like if I told you Chevy is a crap car and I never bothered to sit in one or read a detailed description. I just took my friend's word for it - and wouldn't you know it, it's the friend who loves Ford.

4) I PERSONALLY extended the invitation to you to start a thread to show you what makes me believe in the Qura'an and which miracles are present in it. Feel ree to do so, i would be more than glad to do this.

 

As soon as you explain your claims of scientific discoveries like the Big Bang etc that you made earlier were in the Quran, and as soon as you answer the question I posed as to apostosy.

You keep ignoring them, why is that?

If all you are going to to is pick and choose what you want to discuss, it is not much of a discussion.

DD

 

Once you admit that you were wrong about the 360 bones thing, I will answer this for you correctly.

All I will say is that Quraan is God's word (infallible), and hadith is the Prophet's word (flexible and adjustable).

 

Fine, it was a Hadith, and not in the Quran.....

So says you without an ounce of proof.

To me they are one and the same....both from Mohammed....not from God.


DD

 

Ahh, the irony. You chose number 4, clearly showing there are 3 other points you ignored. lol. I extended the invitation. Feel free to open the thread and I am happy to answer.

 

If you are going to be obtuse then our discussions are at an end....and my belief about Islamic dogma being a problem for the world is re-inforced.

You have made outrageous claims without a shread of proof.....other than..."You believe"

You discount every link, regardless as to it's truth.....and then pretend to actually discuss things rationally, when in reality you have no interest in doing anything but spreading propaganda......and yes, I can see where I might be 100% on the opposite side of this.

Awesome.....

DD

 

I'm an atheist.

Looking forward to your answers!

 

I believe in God, just not any religion - which I believe man has created.

I too look forward to him backing up the claims he has made.

DD

 

LScolaDominates, no offense, but you could have at least googled this "original quranic manuscript" issue as to prevent the scenario of making yourself appear very foolish..

http://www.islam101.com/quran/preservedQ.htm

Usman simply compiled the quran into one reliable volume by having all the guys who wrote what the prophet said meet up and put it together.. this volume by Usman was directly from the prophet, and that was during the prophet's life time (something that stands in stark contrast to the bible writing which took place hundreds of years after Jesus).. this Usman compilation was then copied verbatim over and over again and until this day, we have the same exact quran text as the ones from back then.. if you pick up any quran (some of them age waaay back), they're absolutely identical..

I'll be more than happy to answer any more questions