Minister beaten after clashing with Muslims on his TV show

Wise words.

 

This is obviously not true. Please look at God's Son's post about the 14 Christians that attacked a Jew and a Muslim, and there was zero media outrage.

 

Because you don't listen. The Majority are not silent about this. They publish books, websites, etc. all decrying the violence.

Of course they should be. Because the largest recipient of Muslim extremist violence are Muslims, and not Christians or Jews.

 

are you serious?

 

If the only thing that a nonbeliever cherry picked out of the Bible was from the Old Testament, they would think Christians were pretty nuts...

From Deuteronomy
21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

So, for clarification, is it OK for me to bring my son to church elders to be stoned if he won't listen to me?

The vast majority of Muslims in the world are peaceful, ask Hakeem.

 

I know...had this story not slipped out, I never would have a heard a thing about some correlation between Islam and violence. The press never talks about it.

 

There's a great book...a lot of it satire poking fun at the Church and Christianity...written by Gary Wills called, "What Jesus Meant." And yes, Wills is a believer.

I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT I DRAW HUGE DISTINCTIONS BETWEEN THE NT AND THE OT!!! THE EARLY CHURCH STRUGGLED WITH WHETHER OR NOT THEY SHOULD EVEN INCLUDE THE BOOKS OF THE OT IN THE BIBLE. THEY DECIDED THE STORIES WERE POWERFUL; IT RETAINED CHRISTIANITY'S JEWISH ROOTS; AND IT HELPED SET THE CONTEXT TO UNDERSTAND JESUS...THE NEED FOR JESUS...THE PROPHECY ABOUT HIM...ETC.

But Wills wrote this funny piece about the "purity code"...Hebrew practices and rules...found in Leviticus and other OT books.

So he writes to an imaginary strawman who claims to have all the answers:

"Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Levicitcus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination -- end of debate. I do need some advice from you however regarding other elements of God's laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact witha woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 1:9). The problem is: how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor to the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev 11:10) it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination?

7. Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room there?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting 2 different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of 2 different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev 24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws. (Lev 20:14)

 

Thanks for posting that. Classic!

 

lol, such a sweet kid.

it is precisely this apologetic revisionism that induces mockery upon islam.

Subordination is well established in classical jihad doctrine and clearly evident in islamic history, but I would argue that this was contextual in regards to the normative state of affairs of the pre-modern era. this was a political expansion to establish pre-emptive sovereignty.

What I find most amusing is this misplaced sense of confidence from someone who so unabashedly admits their ignorance on a topic.

What is particularly perplexing is this recent obsession of yours over the past year or so with the so-called 'Satanic Verses'. Talk about arriving late to the party, and grasping at straws over a minor irrelevancy only authenticated by one tradition. Did you just recently read Rushdie's novel or something? Good grief, your incessant preoccupation with this is literally the equivalent of a post-inaugural outcry over Obama's citizenship - an issue resolved in the distant past and only validated by a fringe few. If your posts didn't demonstrate a lack of credibility to begin with, this certainly resolves any doubts.

What a surprise.

Not sure why this would be so difficult to comprehend. It was composed piecemeal. Why wouldn't it be expected that there would be an evolution within the text to meet the changing needs/situation of the community? Has American foreign policy remained stagnant over US history?

Muslims assert it is the word of God. Taking an objectivist approach, even if we assert that the text was authored by Muhammad, that still doesn't suffice as cause for your bewilderment over these alleged inconsistencies.

Now there are certainly problematic issues with regards to interpretation which are obviously manifesting themselves in the present day. But that is an entirely different issue than your claim of some sort of inherent perversion of the text itself.

Since I know you won't have anything substantive in response on this issue, feel free to cite any other youtube clips or freeper links you have found.

 

The problem I see is you passing judgement on vast, complex and diverse movements based upon what you admit to being only partial knowledge colored by what you admit to being bias.

I agree a lot of blood and misery has been spilled in the name of religion but at the same time a lot of blood has been spilled in the name of secular and atheistic movements. The two most devestating wars in human existence have been fought over secular issues primarily by secular forces. The world has been brought close to the brink of nuclear annhilation by secular nations and ideologies, including one that is avowedly athiestic. If we are going to do a body count far more people have died at the hands of secular and forces fighting for secular causes than they have for religious.

Also for as much as religion has lead to bloodshed it has also motivated incredible acts of kindness and also been a force motivating greater understanding. As a human civilization most of our greatest moral leaders, MLK and Gandhi have been religious figures while some of our greatest villians, Hitler and Stalin, have been secular.

So yes religion can be a force for evil but it also has been a great force for good and I don't think an opinion based upon a shallow understanding of any major religion does it credit or is worthy of tarring the whole religion.

You say you're willing to learn more about Islam and while my knowledge of it is very limited I would recommend reading the Autobiography of Malcolm X. That can give you some insight into how Islam was initially a sectarian and divisive influence but as he came to understand it more caused him to moderate his views.

 

I don't have the energy for another muslim-bashing thread. Everyone who thinks I might think your position is bigoted, I probably do.

I can make a little computer program to post on the BBS. In every thread, it'll look for key words to fill in the blanks:

"Where is the outcry from _____ [group A] about ______ [subject A]? If this were _______ [transpose object to subject] doing this to ________[transpose subject to object], ______ [group A] would be all over it.

 

Very good post, Max.

In any book that people see as holy, there are some things that don't make sense. IMO, most of this is translation error and that is not to mean translation from language to language, it is translation from God to human.

It just isn't fair for anyone, particularly people who are not followers of a particular religion, to pick out passages and interpret them. Lots of crazy stuff went on 1500-2000 years ago, but that doesn't mean that times have changed.

I have yet to see any historical record of Muslims spreading their religion by the sword.

 

The interpretation of that stuff is on the followers. And the devil is in those details, to be sure.

I can't comment on the Koran from the perspective of a Muslim. But there is stuff in the Bible I really wish weren't there. And yes, I realize how heretical that will sound to other Christians. But I'd be fine without the Leviticus purity laws being in there.

Having said that, if losing that part meant losing all the history of how the Hebrews marked Yom Kippur, then I'm good with it...because that stuff is rich in meaning. And I suppose from a historical standpoint, it's interesting as well.

So those of you who aren't aware can be aware....there is a ton of talk in the NT about whether or not the old law from the old covenant still applies. This was something the early Church (a largely Jewish group that still met in synagogues and the temple) really struggled with. Do we let in Gentiles (non-Jews)?? If we do, do they not still need to live by Jewish law? After all, Jesus was a rabbi. A Jew who pointed back to prophecy over and over and over again. The Church decided there should be no distinction between Jew or Greek (Gentile)....and the Church decided that following the old law was not necessary to follow Jesus. That they were freed up from that by his one and final sacrifice (the last Yom Kippur - Day of Atonement to those Jews).

 

I don't have a vast knowledge of the comic strip peanuts either, but I know it is fiction.......

I just find it funny that Mohammed said these things, then went...ooops my bad....uh, that was Satan.....to me that raises major red flags, how do we know that all of it was not from Satan for instance?

Sorry, was the US Foreign policy saying it came from God? Because otherwise this is perhaps the worst attempt at justification in the history of the bbs.

Then to your point about the message changing is laugh out loud funny, I mean why would GOD'S message change because his messenger has more to eat, and his political situation has changed?

Doesn't that strike you as the least bit funny, how God's message is tied to one man's station on earth...I mean really?

I can't get over so many people believing that the teachings/speaking of a man in the 600's, was somehow more relevant or real than Zues, or Apollo, or Ra, or..etc..etc..etc...

I mean I can understand people looking for a message of hope, and latching on to it, but the fact that a lot of the Muslim faith is from a bully pulpit is a major issue with it's validity, IMO.

I don't believe in any religion, I think they are all just made up hocus pocus, and I don't believe in sugar coating the issues either in hiding behind some mythical need to study it longer......

If you believe, fine, feel free, but don't be surprised when other people point out the inconsistencies in a faith, or that it is being undermined to kill people and create terror all over the world.

The truth is the truth.

Yawn.

DD

 

Yes, but we are not talking about those movements, there are tons of political footballs to disguise the real discussion.

IMO...and that is all this is......I think religion is all made up hocus pocus....created by man to control the masses, and to create a business for man to profit etc.

If you don't agree, fine....but don't be surprised when people call out the heinous acts being done in the name of a particular religion and then call into question that very religion just because others have done bad things too.

DD

 

DaDakota,

With all due respect, you are simply lying. You asked for an explanation of the satanic verses, and I wrote a gigantic post describing it for you and you either didn't read it or ignored it.

If you truly cared to know about them, you would have tried to find out on your own or read my response.

For what it's worth, simply put, the Devil tried to ruin Muhammad PBUH's message as he did with Jesus PBUH. He failed on both accounts and there are enough details out there showing his failure.

As for the "verse of the sword" or whatever, you shoudl really be ashamed for taking it out of context. The verse is reffering to a specific war where the Muslims were retaliating following an attack. That is not for your information, that is for everyone else's information. Do your homework or admit the holes in it.

 

Mathloom, I read it, and I understand that is what you believe, and honestly I appreciate the effort.

But for me, I don't believe in the Devil, so to me, it is just a case of a man (Mohammed) screwing up and covering his tracks, nothing more.

I get that you believe the whole story, I do not.

DD

 

I found an explanation of the two verses DD reffered to for those who are interested. Very simply explanation with good detail and other examples to boot.

Link to explanation

Ofcourse, that is if you believed that stuff in the first place.. and I really thank those people who reserved judgement and/or looked into it themselves. Thanks.

 

Speaking about misconceptions about Jesus and other spiritual figures gives me the opportunity to once again post this jem:

<embed id="VideoPlayback" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-8304756378019746541&hl=en&fs=true" style="width:400px;height:326px" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash

 

Thanks Mathloom, I will read it later, but coming from a place of non-belief to begin with, I doubt it will have much impact, other than information on what believers think.

It would be more believable if it came from someone that was studying Islam and not necessarily a follower......

DD