Minister beaten after clashing with Muslims on his TV show

I'm going to take you on the scientific discoveries (big bang) argument:

source: http://www.55a.net/en/miracles/a047.php

I strongly suggest you look around that site, I didn't get the chance to see everything, but a lot of really good arguments and evidence is present..

as for the apostasy issue, here ya go, from your fav site, wikipedia:

yes, it's only a "small minority", but blame the people that do the interpreting, not the religion in its entirety.. just a little open mindedness, that's all we're askin for Dakota..

 

Huh? Most scholars agree that the earliest known copy of the Quran was from more than 100 years after Mohammed's death.

If what you say actually happened, where are the manuscripts?

100 years is a lot of time to assume that things were compiled correctly.

You know what...this is pointless, I think the Ideology is dangerous.....

Hopefully the religion will grow up and moderate like all the others.

DD

 

I don't think I look foolish.

Does the original Quranic manuscript exist or not? What is the earliest extant copy?

 

The verse supposedly describing the origin of the universe:

(source: http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/)

The first part is far too vague to be a valid analogy to the Big Bang Theory.

The second part, that all living things were made out of water, is false.

 

I only skimmed the thread but you seem to be arguing two things.

One is a skepticism argument about religion which isnt mutually exclusive to islam. Questioning the date of texts, the absolute truth claims about Quranic verses are more general questions about religion as a whole rather than criticisms of Islam. My own personal belief on the issue is that faith is faith. Its a personal belief that needs no justifying as there is no plausible scientific method to validate the existence of God. God can not be proven or disproven with any known method of logic or reason. It is just the way it is.

Your 2nd point is one you've stated for a while, that Islam is a radical religion that promotes extremism. I'm of the opinion that Islam inherently is no different than any other religion except that religious leaders in many countries promote a literalist and frankly backward interpretation. That's more a criticism of the culture of the Middle East rather than the religion itself, and there are serious issues with the culture of most Middle Eastern countries, but you cant conflate religion and culture. Moderation is important but it will only rise when the Middle East engages in a cultural revolution which starts in my opinion with the end of the oil economy there. The governments there are an anachronism held in place because oil runs the economy and until that changes the culture of many Middle Eastern countries won't change.

 

Nitpicking the Quran doesn't mean anything. These are interpretations more than translations of the Quran. Secondly you're making skepticism claims rather than anything exclusive to Islam. If you have objections to religion as a whole that's fine but your claims aren't unique to Islam which isn't the point of the thread.

 

Islamist terror is not only prevalent in the middle east, unfortunately (e.g., Indonesia).

 

Dakota - what's with the fixation on apostasy laws?

the penalty for apostasy was enforced because of the fact that islam at its conception was communal. it was not a 'religion' in the modern sense of the term, but rather an all-encompassing ideology. to denounce one's faith was the equivalent to our modern understanding of 'treason.' in that context, it was perceived as a threat to the community. do you think execution for treason is appalling? this comparison might be difficult to conceptualize for us because our modern sense of religion has evolved from the communal to the personal domain.

now the fact that this apostasy law is still enforced is absolutely sickening and grotesque. but again, this wasn't a law prescribed in the quran, so i dont see how this is proof of an inherent malfeasance within islam. its just another example of extremist interpretation struggling to come to grips with modernity. there is no modern concept of communal practice and faith is no longer intertwined with statehood.

geeimsobored - i agree with you about the resource curse. until those countries restructure their economies, this is a hopeless situation. hopefully, 50-100 years from now, history can look back and recognize this as the natural growing pains of a religion coping with modernity.

in the meantime, what can you do? you can try and kill every islamic extremist but this would probably breed more extremism. the other viable option would be to exterminate every muslim off the face of the earth. this would probably solve the issue by wiping out islam completely, but there are obvious moral concerns there. all the west can do is force these backward regimes into political/economic reform rather than sleeping with the house of saud.

 

Cabbage, if every discussion about Islam took context of the situation into consideration, I would have virtually no issues.

Context is everything, regarding religion, and ancient texts.

And honestly, I am baffled why so many people would believe something written by an uneducated people to be the word of God, how is any of it different than Jim Jones, or David Koresh, or any other number of false prophets?

To me, they are all false prophets.....

DD

 

That actually usually is the primary argument from the stance opposing yours. By all accounts, the text of the Quran is virtually unrivaled from a linguistic standpoint. The essence of this can't be fully captured and appreciated through an English translation.

The argument would be that it would be impossible for Muhammad, who was illiterate, to produce a work as linguistically resonant as this text unless it were divinely inspired.

I am of the opinion that there isn't any logical basis behind religion - you're not going to be able to outdebate someone into adopting a certain stance. My intent is merely to explain the real world circumstances regarding an assessment of the faith.

 

Fair enough.

But just because someone has not learned how to read does not make them unintelligent, so to me the illeterate argument is silly, as generations of shamans etc have passed down oral histories without being able to write.

DD

 

I'm not sure what your point is. I was replying to a specific claim another poster made. You would be wise to observe context before claiming that something is meaningless.

 

How? The linguistic structure was recorded verbatim from his oral recitation. So how would intelligence be relevant?

For instance, no matter how smart/dumb a person is, if they are illiterate, I find it highly unlikely that they could orally compose something of a Shakesperean level.

By all accounts, the Arabic text of the Quran is Shakesperean to the nth degree, and that is what countless generations have found compelling.

 

By all accounts? I doubt that.

That's a pretty awful argument.

Never mind!

 

Like I said, there is no rational basis for religion, and anyone claiming otherwise is an irrational actor and pretty indoctrinated by convenient dogma.

Religion is blind faith and the convenience of refuge within structure. Arguing about religion is pointless in general.

 

I don't think it's pointless. At the very least, it forces people to put down their ideas in an organized way.

 

I mean in the sense of proselytization. There's no logical argumentation that can prove the 'truth' of any religion or existance of God. Any claims otherwise actually hurt a person's own argument revealing them as an irrational actor.

 

quoted for truth.. I absolutely agree.. if there was any absolute evidence of religion/existence of god, everyone would be a believer..

using rationality, however, to explain the religion as an entity, is actually the thing that the "religious nutcases" are missing.. personally, I refuse to follow a single islamic ritual/rule that doesn't make sense/serve a purpose, or at least have the potential to be of benefit to mankind.. here's a quick run through:

-praying 5 times a day: it's the chance to spiritually connect with god.. the movements constitute for a good physical exercise (anyone who prays feels the stretching in the hamstrings when kneeling ), and it was scientifically proven that putting your forehead on the ground discharges static electricity from the body, which is very healthy.. now take the "physical" part lightly, it's not why we do the prayers, but I find it amusing

-fasting from dawn until dusk for a month: was intended to put you in the shoes of a homeless poor guy who doesn't have anything to eat or drink.. develops patience in society and creates a sense of sympathy for the less fortunate, and thus encourages charitable actions

-women covering (aka: hijab): this is by far the most controversial issue and something that is EXTREMELY misunderstood.. the actual "covering the hair" part is more of a cultural component than a religious one.. what islam and the quran order women to do is to refrain from dressing ostensibly/sexy.. here's how I like to explain it, and I'm being completely serious, so please excuse the inappropriateness of the following: [men are always horny, women are more reserved, a man can barely control the desires of the little buddy down there.. when you see a woman in a mini skirt, your body/hormones tell you to have sex with her.. now, premarital sex is horrible because, well, they didn't have condoms and pills back then, and illegitimate children are horrible for society (this still applies until this day in every society) because they will grow up in shame/(most of them grow up in the streets, here in the U.S).. they become a liability to society, and most grow up to become felons.. by requiring the woman to NOT DRESS SEXY, you make it easier for the man NOT to have sexy time with her, thus preventing premarital sex, thus preventing b*stard children, thus making society better]

-alcohol/drugs/pork prohibition: no need for explanation here, liver disease and the countless harmful effects of pig meat make more than enough proof that this is awesome.. they didn't have biological research back in the desert a thousand years ago, which makes the prohibition of alcohol and pork either an insane coincidence or, well, a work of the superior being.. I happen to be of the belief that it's the latter..

 

You do not have to be able to read, to be an eloquent speaker. Maybe Mohammed was the world's original rap artist.



DD

 

Ugh.

I wait 20 something hours to come back to THIS?

I hope you realize I don't HAVE to explain anything to you. I'm doing you a favor. Because you asked.

Anyways.

Reasons:

1) I've seen that thacabbage has discussed the language of the Qura'an already. I can't emphasize this anymore than he has, he has honestly impressed me with his knowledge. But just to drive the point home, there is no way the caravan manager just spoke these words.

2) Factually, it's more than impressive. Earth is round, universe is expanding, sperm forms the embryo. I won't go into detail about this. There is no chapter specifically dealing with these issues either. These things are all casually mentioned.

3)

Oxford study of oldest manuscript.

Here is what Hijra means.

13 years before the Hijra, the Prophet PBUH was around 40 years old and had just begun receiving the Qura'an.