Is there any reason to believe that the Rockets will not be a playoff team next season with Ming? Can someone convince me that with the addition of Odom, Kelvin Cato and Mo Taylor are enough low post presence to get the Rockets out of the 1st round? They will almost assuredly be matched against the Kings, Lakers, Spurs or Mavs. If you can't unquestionably get out of the 1st round with either Ming or Odom for at least one season...take Ming. He'll close down the experience gap quickly as he has a terrific work ethic. Lastly, if running a high post (UCLA cut?) offense is a good idea, why wouldn't it be more effective having a sharp shooting center running it as opposed to a SF? Ming is an excellent passer and has a 7" height advantage over Odom. Plus he is drawing the opposing center away from the basket.
Mmanal, The thing that I like about Yao is that he's got the potential to fill alot more of the holes in our team than Odom does. Odom's not going to make us a better defensive team and nobody we're going to get at #8 or #12 is too good of an option. Stoudamire is years and years away from being ready, Hilario and Wilcox will also take two or more years. Also, none of those guys are really centers. Today's NBA is so weak at the center spot, if Yao can play at all, we'd have a big advantage most nights. On the offensive side, we lack any type of post up game. Ming has the potential to give us that also. Worse case, we know he's a deadly jump shooter. One thing we learnded from the LA/Sacramento series is that if your big guys can shoot from the perimeter (and pull Shaq outside) and your guards can penetrate, then you can give the Laker's trouble. If Ming can create driving lanes for Francis and Mobley, then we'd be light years ahead of where we are now. I agree Odom is a very skilled player, but I guess I disagree on just how much he'd help us. We saw a steady diet of soft zones last year, where teams dropped several players inside to cut off our driving lanes and dared us to beat them over the top. To me, even if we add Odom, we'll see the same defenses and have the same problems. Odom isn't a great shooter, he's more of a penetrator too. To me, he duplicates alot of what Francis and Mobley do. He's a good passer for a small forward, but his assist to turnover ratio is as bad or worse than Steve's, so I'm not sure that it really helps to have him handling the ball instead. Francis and Mobley are most effective off the dribble and they don't move that well without the ball. I'm not sure that a high post passer is going to help out our guards that much. Of course, like you mentioned, Yao is suppose to be a very good passer also. Anyway, good to have you back at CCnet. Whichever decision we end up making, it's sure alot more fun than deciding between Moiso and Pryzbilla!
You forgot Eddie Griffin. Eddie looked good his rookie year, and I think he'll have a pretty good year next year. And if the Rockets theoretically use the picks correctly, it could be a frontcourt of Griffin/Mo, Odom and Cato and some good young talent out of the draft. Now if Ming has any kind of a presence for the Rockets next year I think they'll make the playoffs. But considering how much he has to learn about the league I'm worried it'll be just another "learning season".
Gang, IMHO Ming is a Tim Duncan type player, he has all the tools of a SF and the body of a Center. He has grace, agility, and skills, he is a once in a lifetime player. You do not pass on those to pick up a SF who is a good but not great player. The Center position is FAR more important then the SF position, and if you get a chance to get a potential Superstar Center, you take it. Ming will have an impact right away....he will get pushed by some, and he will push some as well. Look at Pau Gasol, he is a twig, but he has skills that allow him to excel....look at Garnet, he is also very thin but he still is a great player. Ming is 300 pounds and 7'5" with skills....how in the world can you pass him up to take on just a GOOD player like Odom. You don't trade the number 1 pick, it is simply not done....unless you need TONS, and the Rockets are only a player away from competing, and a new passing/sharing attitude would help too. Ming will be the pick, and you guys will be very happy as he averages 15pts 11rbs and 2.5blks in his rookie year. Just thing how good it will be to have a true rebounding big man to free up Francis, and Mobley etc to release on the break. MING = Young Duncan. Time to get on board the Orient Express. DaDakota
Remember Sam Bowe? Forget Ming, draft Butler or trade. The draft is too deep to worry if Ming is it or not!!!
Mmanal,Welcome back.You have brought some very realistic possibilities for the Rockets next year.Personally I still would take Ming and add another player with the MCE to help him and Cato out, although I still think getting Lamar and Hilario might be a less risky bet. Are you still associated with draftsourcenet? If yes,then can you please tell us when it's going to be upgraded.
The way I look at it, even adding Odom, an #8, and a #12, the Rockets still won't win a championship now or anytime soon. They will still, for years, be worse than the Mavs, Kings and Lakers. With Ming, they will either still be worse than those teams, or have the possibility of being able to beat all of those teams, Lakers included. You have to take the risk.
I didn't forget Eddie. As much as I love his game, his current low post offense is pathetic. Let me refresh your memory. EG spent the majority of his time standing at the 3pt line. If you think EG is going to develop low post moves in one summer, you may be allowing your love of his game to destroy your objectivity. This is wishful thinking. Odom is not a postup player. And please give me one player who will be available at #8 that offers a low post game immediately. Wilcox? I equate him with Zach Randolph who rides the pines in Portland. Hilario, Stoudamire? Really? I will ask again - unless Odom takes the Rockets out of the 1st round next season, what difference does a "learning" season make?
Sam Bowie had 2 red shirts in college. I agree with how do you pass up the best player at the weakest position? He's very skillful and catches the ball well. I guess his upper body has something to do with him not catching also? He's skillful, bug, can catch shoot and pass, yet we're suppose to pass. Ok , give him to the clipps and then he develops on a already loaded team and the rockets will be further down the pecking order. I can see him doing no worse than 14pt 8 rebs his first yr.
GATER, I seriously dont think the Rockets are playoff caliber next season with a developing Ming on the roster. I just dont see him being anywhere near NBA ready next season and cant see him logging major PT for this team. A lot of folks are automatically assuming that this team when healthy can immediately win 47 games like the year before last. Two huge variables to that run people are forgetting, Hakeem Olajuwon was having an excellent run during the last few months of the season, and Walt Williams was absolutely on fire during that time as well. Neither of those variables are there next season. I think if this team just drafts Ming and selects a wing player at 15, they arent playoff material next season. If you put Odom and a couple of bangers on this ballclub, I think they are in the playoffs next season and could possibly put a couple of good games together and "upset" an opponent. I would love to have your optimism that Ming will develop an NBA caliber body to bang inside soon and will become an interior player at this level very quickly, but I just dont. The huge question arises as to whether or not the Rockets will have Ming in the offseasons to develop. If the Rockets lose him for big chunks of time due to his offseason obligations, I dont see how this development can happen quickly. What Im really concerned about happening is this becoming another Jonathan Bender type situation. I remember on draft night, people were talking about how Bender was the real deal, how he had range out to NBA three and just needed some time to develop his lean frame. Well guess what, its been 3 full seasons and Bender still hasnt shown much except flashes of potential. I am just not ready to wait 3-4 years on Ming to develop esp when in most likelihood he'll be a good but not great NBA center. I dont think that w/o upgrading, this team is capable of making the playoffs with a Ming that has to be brought along slowly. Also, on the high post comment you made. No doubt about it, whether the Rockets draft Ming or acquire Odom, the high post offense will be worked in. Ming's passing ability is one of the positives to drafting him. The bottom line is this for me, considering the complexion of our frontline, I would much rather have a banger than a skill/finesse player like Ming. Also, Odom has the ability to read defenses and make plays similar to that of a point guard. Not to mention, Odom has been making plays at the much quicker NBA level for 3 yrs, something Ming has not. Aelliott, I really dont think in the long run the Rockets will have Francis and Mobley doing the complete ball handling for this team as neither is a true PG. What really alerts me to this fact is that Rudy loves to go three guard with Moochie running the point. Imagine Odom being the ball handler running things in this situation. As far as the high post thing goes, as I pointed out to GATER, I think thats where we're headed. Cuttino is very capable of going around a pick and coming off a curl to catch the ball in the 15-18 ft range. As a matter of fact, wasnt Rudy allowing Mobley to come off a curl and get the ball in scoring position towards the end of the season as opposed to having to create something off the dribble every time? Also, as far as Wilcox, Hilario and Stoudamire go. I dont think they are the long term projects your making them out to be. I think any of them esp Wilcox would get minutes their first year even if its just limited action. They all need work on their offensive game, but they have pretty much NBA ready bodies. I remember David Dalati of 610 commented after Amare's workout with the Rockets that if you didnt know who Amare Stoudamire was, you wouldnt think he was a HS player going to the NBA due to his body being so NBA ready. Chris Wilcox is 6-10 and a good 240-245, and Hilario apparently measured at 6-11 264 in shoes. I honestly feel that this team with Odom and the two lottery picks will be a whole lot better in the short run and long run than the Ming one. People are unnecesarily overreacting to a problem of smoking pot and a wrist injury last year. Smoking pot is a totally different thing than what was going on in the 80s with the likes of John Lucas and co. Those guys were on cocaine and heroine which is very addictive; mar1juana is nowhere near as severe as those situations. It appears people are viewing Odom in the same light as these others, and I dont think thats fair. This is a player who had just come off two very good seasons and at the age of 21 was considered to have Magic Johnson type potential. Now all of a sudden b/c of one season, Odom and TWO lottery picks is not worthy of a project center who by most accounts will require a lot of patience? saleem, Yes, draftsource still exists, but we have been seriously behind on profiles this year. Pretty much everyone involved has had their plate full including myself which is why my posting has been dormant for a while. However, we should pretty much have the top 20 type guys finished pretty soon.
Dakota, I dont think Ming is going to have an immediate impact. Pau Gasol was able to get that kind of opportunity b/c the Grizzlies were going nowhere. They had just torn up their foundation by dealing Bibby and Rahim and could allow their new rookies the touches to develop. Gasol and Battier got this hands on training similar to what Francis and Mobley received after Barkley went down a few years back. However, look at the end result, the Grizz lost roughly 60 games and were near the bottom of the NBA again. Low post defense is more than just being able to block shots. You have to have hard nosed interior players that will hold their position on the low block and wont back down. Thats really what separates a team like Dallas from being in the class of the Lakers and Kings this yr. I felt the defensive improvement of the Kings has been phenomenal over the last 2 seasons both at the point of attack and on the interior. This whole media adage that the Kings dont defend is a complete myth. What I envision happening with this Odom deal in the long run is that the Rockets will be offensively in the class of Dallas but will also have the necessary interior toughness to make a real deep run into the playoffs. I am very concerned that a combo of Ming and Griffin will get pushed around a lot.
MManal, I do not agree with you on what Ming can do next year and also your take on how ready the rockets are. The Lakers last night was one wide and tall body away from being eliminated last night. If Cato or Ming came instead of Pollard with Vlade in foul trouble, the Lakers would have been gone. In fact with that kind of depth, (Ming, Cato and Collier) they could collectively play hard on Shaq. As it is Shaq could not even talk after the game. I would have been happy to go up in that situation with Ming, Cato and Collier and even Stoudamire. If anything Ming could bring out Shaq and he can score with the jump shot. In the pick and roll he can score and or pass the ball. Remember when the game was on the line, none of their sf's and og's could take them home, as could well be the case with Odom and company. We have to take care on the low post, stock it and stock it well. That is also why we won with Mario Ellie, because our low post was stocked. The Kings, Mavs and Lakers are not that superior to us, when we are healthy. I would be very happy to put Ming, Stoudamire and Prince, or Ming, Nachbar and #38 to this team and expect to make some noise. Heck if we are lucky with injuries we could be like NJ.
MManal, I really appreciate your good work. Excellent posts, and keep'em coming. Reading your posts sure beats work, which is where I am and what I'm supposed to be doing. Forget it. You have to have priorities. Let's say we make a trade like Jay Williams, Rice, and KT for Odom, #8, #12, and Maggette. Obviously I don't know if there's a 3-way trade out there with Chicago involved; but what sort of upgrades could/should we make in the post? Anyone's thoughts on this would be welcome.
I disagree. And essentially that is what it comes down to. One person's opinion that Ming will not be able to produce consistently next year, or ever, in the league versus another person who sees him as ready to be a solid NBA center already and to eventually dominate. All I know is if we just add Odom, we have to get very very lucky with the #8 or #12 pick (ie - find a Kobe or Pierce - which is just as risky as taking Ming) to ever be any better than a middle of the pack playoff team. It'd be fun to go back to the playoffs again, but I'd take a chance at a championship once than to become the next Utah Jazz.
Dear Rock, I dont know how you feel Cato, Ming, and Collier would have been the difference for Sacto in that series. Ming is no where near ready to bang against Shaquille O'Neal. I dont know where you get that he is a widebody; if he gets pushed off the block by Cristofferson, he is not going to prevent Shaq from getting great low post position. I just dont agree, Ming is not NBA ready and will take a lot of time and patience to develop. We will just have to agree to disagree here. I actually think Vlade Divac did a very good job against O'Neal, its just that Shaq is no dominant. The Kings played the Lakers about as well as you can but just were not able to make a few key plays and hit a necessary amount of FTs in Game 7 to win. I honestly feel that with a healthy Stojakovic that is not rusty like he has been after the ankle injury, the Kings can get past the Lakers next season. Rox, That is basically the deal I am hoping for. Corey Maggete would be an excellent energy guy off the bench behind Odom and Mobley basically taking the minutes of Oscar Torres. This would also allow the Rockets to rest Mobley a little more and reduce Moochie's MPG. I think Moochie is more effective when he plays about 15-20 MPG. I really dont think that there would be any major need to upgrade after this deal. I would simply allow our frontcourt grow and develop. I think Eddie Griffin will develop a low post game in time and until he is ready to start, Mo can handle that role. Getting a couple of tough bangers will be a welcome addition.
JayZ, Thats where we differ in opinion about Ming and will just have to see how it develops. I think he'll need a slow approach to develop and can develop into a solid big man, but no way does this guy dominate the league imo. Also, I think we differ a good deal on Odom. Im just absolutely amazed with what this guy can do at the age of 22. The guy handles and pass like a PG except he's 6-10 and not to mention grabbed 8 RPG his first two seasons. I really think the Rockets will be a load to handle with his addition, and the draft picks would not have to be Pierce or Kobe. Simply adequate inside enforcers that know their role would do the trick.
MManal, I also disagree with you about Odom helping the team's defense. He is a horrible defender and has proven to be a big risk especially with 2 times being caught using Mary Jane. Give me Ming and his great work ethic, his low post game, and his willingness to listen to his coach, over Odom any day. DaDakota
Odom alone makes this team a playoff team. When you play Odom, it's like we're going to small ball...except everyone is normal sized. Take a step back. Some people thought we may end up with the 8th pick on draft day. So, now potentially we can get the 8th, the 12th, a 22 year old with career averages of 16-7.5-5, and Corey Maggette, while dumping Rice? And we'll drown in mediocrity? Lamar Odom is an extremely talented player. Maybe getting him out of LA will help him. I would not write him off, like MManal said, if this discussion was last year, it'd be "Odom for #1" straight up. 2 lotto picks and Corey Maggette in addition to that is a LOT of talent. If you're damn sure that Ming is going to be a superstar, and dominant, then I guess you have to take him. I think he's going to be a good player-Rik Smits like player, a lot of people are saying the same thing. That's not bad at all, but we could pick up a stud SF, a high potential wingman, and grab 2 centers, like Borchardt and Hilario at 8 and 12.
