I think we've come to the point where we arent really that far apart in our opinions of MJ vs. Kobe. We could continue to hash this thing out, and I've got responses ready for every point you made, and chances are that you'll have counters for those, but the crux of the issue is that we agree on the following main points: 1- Jordan > Kobe (how much greater is where we differ) 2- Each benefitted from talent around them, meaning neither player was a one man team 3- Both have significant personal accomplishments, but Jordans outnumber Kobe's (MVP's, DPOY, etc.) The main difference is over point 1 and how far apart we think the two players are. As to that difference, although I disagree, I respect your position significantly more than those who overinflate MJ's accomplishments, constantly beckoning to 'facts' that defy the reality during his time- 'facts' like how porous his supporting cast was (when in fact they were quite talented), or how no one shot the ball as good as him (FG% and 3P%), or how much the Bulls sunk when he was gone those two seasons, etc, etc
He'd be even better in todays NBA with all the BS superstar calls. He would be at the line on EVERY posession lol.
Larry Bird might have something to say about that Kobe is an amazing player no doubt, but MJ was just at another level altogether. Younger generations are more likely to denegrate the level of competeition back in the 80's or 90's -- but that has more to do with them not being around to have seen it than it actually being true. Plus, Kobe's only won one ring as a non-sidekick... and gone down in flames twice in the Finals with some pretty stacked teams. MJ was just as good if not better offensively, better athletically, better defensively, better competitively a better leader and when he got to the biggest stage, he just did not lose.
Don't think this is true before 1992. By the accounts of his teammates and Collins and some ex-teammates and Tex Winter and Phil Jackson when he wasn't coddling him, it was very difficult to pry the ball from his hands on offense. You didn't hear about it much because the media loved him like they once did JFK, but Sam Smith's book is very elucidating on the subject. There's a reason that Paxson was the primary point (a guy w/o point skills, but who was unselfish and stayed out of his way) was the only point who lasted at Jordan's side until Mike actually figured out that Winter and Jackson weren't full of S.
did you even watch hakeem? i started following hakeem in 93 and the 2 years that followed were 2 of the most dominant basketball seasons by an individual i have ever seen, esp. in the playoffs. dream doesn't have the rings to stack up to magic or bird, but he didn't have the all-star supporting cast that those guys did. he's arguably the only player in history who has won without an all-star on his own team. magic and bird had like 2-3 other HOF guys on their teams. not being a homer, i would put dream above those 2 guys. but i wouldn't be mad if others choose magic or bird. but can't touch? put down the pipe son and learn your history, and not just from hearsay.
Jordan moved the ball so much as he was going to the basket. It's like he had it on a string. The guy was small, but no one could block him because you had no idea where the ball was going, much less where the shot was going to come from eventually. Can that kind of movement be taught?
The team Kobe had 81 points against, Raptors, were second last in team defense in 2006, gave up 104 ppg. But they'd rank No.3 best defensive team in 86-87 when Jordan averaged 37 ppg. The so tough Pistons gave up 107.8 that year. Just to give some perspective. In any sense, Jordan's number was inflated compared to today's league. From 80s to early 90, players were allowed to be more physical, true. But they weren't as athletic, played at high tempo (the league averaged 109.9 points and didn't shoot 3 well). Normally didn't intentionally foul to stop layup. And as a result, shooting % was higher league wide at that time. And this handcheck thing is a myth. Yes, Wade averaged most FT in NBA final history for a reason. But that didn't quite apply to Kobe. He shot 0.377 FT/FGA in 06, but 0.452 and 0.501 FT/FGA the 2 previous seasons. And anyone is welcome to show me the clips for the last 3 playoff a handcheck was called against the player defending Kobe. I'll counter with 3X instances handchecks not called, guaranteed. Handcheck is a tool for Stern to promote his babies. If it's tightly called, each team will have 50FT a game. Even refs will be sick of that. It has to be called selectively.
that's why you don't look at points per game; you look at FG%. jordan shot a high fg% his entire career and that's why he is considered the best perimeter player of all time, regardless of defense. and he takes TONS of jumpers. the reason fg% were higher back then was b/c players were more fundamentally sound back then. nowadays, we have more athletic players that can't shoot a midrange to save their lives. yes, the pace was quicker then, but the game isn't as physical now. john starks, joe dumars, coopers would put all these defensive greats nowadays to shame. you think MJ would struggle v. freakin' ray allen? tony allen? it would be laughable. kobe is one of the best scorers we have seen, but if you're implying kobe is anywhere near the scorer MJ was, you should stop. i don't care what rules you put in, MJ at 35 or 36 would annihilate ray allen, shane battier, bruce bowen... or any good defender we have now. thats why you can't look at points scored without the efficiency. that's why we marvel at guys like lebron who takes 5-6 3s a game and yet still manages to shoot 50+%, when most of the perimeter players average 42-43%.
hell jordan at age 39 shot 45% for his 20 points per game. kobe has NEVER shot more than 46% his entire career. that was how ridiculous jordan was. kobe will go down as one of the greats, but the gap b/t jordan and kobe remain huge. the only thing kobe is close to jordan is one less ring. everything else, jordan blows kobe out of the water.
I can only hope you are being sarcastic. Dude is BAD!!!!! My favorite clip was where he was driving in along the baseline against the Celtics. 3 or 4 C's collapsed around MJ but he found the exact right moment to get the shot off. And he did it with such ease ... almost like he was saying 'Please, it's gonna take more than 3 white guys to stop me!'.
