add to that if one of vancouvers 4 go down to injury, they are in big trouble!! takes more than 5 players to win in this league.
Let me say 1 quick thing before I go on Bibby will never be anything in this league, with that being said I would take MD over Cat a million times out of a million. MD reminds me of an athletic Dumars, and if you have ever watched the Grizz(I've been watching them for 2 1/2 seasons now, since I live on the west coast) he is the only one consistently hustling on D, Price hustles but he is too slow. Shareef can't risk getting out of position because he is the goto guy on Offense and is their only shotblocker on D. Micheal could have done this on the Rockets last year but you all forget we had Dream Charles and the Malcontent Pimple, throw in Othella and you have less and less touches for MD, hell even Cuttino was a jacker so MD had no real room to show off his talents, when he actualy did show it off he was amazing like that game in Golden State last year. All in all I would make the trade we did but if they wanted Cuttino I would have packed Cat's bags personaly if I were Rudy but then again, I ain't. ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
Salsa do you watch Vancouvers games? I actually do and as far as talent on the team I would say they are a better team, as to why they never win it is an easy answer, Organization, thats it. They are always competitive and just like the Rockets they just lose focus in the fourth. We got the better of the trade for sure, but we didn't steal Steve away Othella and MD are damn good players not all-stars but even better they are consistent players who know their roles. Steve is a future all-star(knock on wood, we all remember Kenny Anderson don't we) who can takeover a game with his scoring ability and his unselfishness. The thing that kills me is that Francis might could have been had for Pippen, they would have given us all their trash (to make the trade work cap wise) and Francis and we would have sent them Car and Pippen and whoever it would have taken to make the trade work. Oh well ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
Well, like many who sign off and then are goaded back on, I'm here again. What got me back is not the attacks so much (I fully expected that) but actually the people who saw some logic in what I was saying. I have the greatest respect for the many excellent posters on this board (I recommend it to Griz fans as a model site) and I feel I owe the best of Clutch more. Thanks to Jardinero for being able to hear the central points of my case and even the folks who grudgingly got out of their "homer" heads to see even some logical points. For those of you who have attacked me, first the good attacks -- anybody who used factual info, major kudos. I have to apologize for not knowing about the Harrington/Wallace/Taylor near swap at the time I was posting and I now look pretty sucked in by Jackson in believing his spin --maybe he is a better poker player than even I thought. You gotta like a GM who does the umbrella give-away and radio ads with Othella on the same day he is scraping the guy's name off his locker. Also, a major kudo to the Freakanian One for comparing MD with CM -- I had no idea they were that close offensively (although per minute figures are always dangerous because of going up against second-stringers and garbage time). Now for the "homer-heads" (I admit I am this without shame but at least I'll listen to a good fact pattern). The phrase "pure point guard" doesn't seem to make sense to some of you so I will explain what I mean again. The emphasis is on "pure" in the phrase. Maybe I'm slicing it too thin but Francis is not yet a pure point guard in the classic sense and his wonderful numbers prove it in a strange way(he leads the team in virtually all the major offensive categories). My point is that the "pure" point guard often takes a lesser role in scoring/creating his shot, etc. because the team goes further when he does this. Bibby is higher than Francis in four "pure" point guard areas -- assists (7.4 to 6.9), steals (Bibby is a surprising 11th in the league, Francis is 23rd), 3 pt % (.373 to .312) and assist/to ratio(2.54 to 1.75). Bibby's ppg is a Stockton-like 14.2, as well. He fits the classic mold, and he is only 22! If you don't like classic point guards, you'll never like Bibby's game and all my figuring will never change that. Francis is the new breed of pg (Marbury is the model, Iverson is the genetically deformed version at sg) --hugely athletic and dangerous on the dribble. I think Francis can possibly be better than all of them (including Bibby), if he learns to add more of the classic stuff to his game. He isn't there yet and you guys should hope that his well-fortified ego doesn't get in his way. On the Grizzlies potential vs. Houston potential arguments, let's try this again, too. I agree completely that Houston has a superior bench to Vancouver's (although that's not saying much). If you guys figure it has even greater potential, you should look at going down the Portland route -- get waves of guys coming off it to wear down your opponents. Maybe you'll be able to do this because you are still a franchise that most guys want to play for. Vancouver suffers from the "Gulag of the NBA" syndrome and the only choice for us is to build a fantastic core and hope our success adds interest (like the Kings)and the bench builds later. If you look in every major statistical category - rebounds, points, 3 point%, free throw% , assists, steals -- you'll see 2 or 3 Grizzlies names in the top 50 (Harrington appears in rebs and fg% but the rest is all Bibby, Dickerson and Rahim). The only Houston guy that repeats is Francis. Anyone who calls down the potential(note: I said potential not current success) of the Grizzlies is just ignoring these rather overwhelming statistics. Of course, a lot of this has to do with how many minutes we play our starters but you guys seem to be constantly searching for your other best 4 guys. You can argue all you want about us being so lousy now (we are lousier than you but not by much), but my central theme is that the Houston deal put us on a track where we can go the Kings route with some extra additions, maybe even next year. Rick Pitino and Jeff Van Gundy have both said that Stu Jackson has done the best job possible with our difficult franchise situation and he is a top NBA executive. The only deals that Jackson had that came even close to what you guys gave us were Stackhouse/Vaught and Brown/Lenard (although Riley was rumoured to have said no). Not much Kings-like potential there. Maybe "fleecing" is too strong but won't you feel a little bit funny about seeing that #1 pick float away or don't you sometimes imagine how Dickerson or Harrington would look rather than someone else on your bench? I think you did an excellent job of replacing these guys but replacing isn't the same as adding to what you already had in hand. I'll stick to my prediction that down the road we'll be battling you guys for a playoff spot and it'll be thanks to the Francis deal -- only time will tell. I fully hope that 5 years from today we're still debating this deal as we take turns winning championships -- I just want the first one.
Obviously, you are still avoiding the main reason you need to: SHAKE YOUR HEAD Why did you pick Bibby instead of Vince Carter, again? Bonehead #2 picks like reaching for need is the main reason your organization will keep picking #2.
Vancouver will never be sucsessful because of the organization, why do the clippers suck every year???? Why do good teams only take 2-3 years to rebuild??? Organization thats why, your players are only half of the game the rest is in the front office. ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
yah i watch vancouvers games fairly often do u? i dont see alot of close scores. its also that thing called post games scores. Organization my ass. The GM and president arent the ones playing. vancouver's players dont play up to their potential half the time with a few exceptions. o and having a better bench isnt saying much? well if ur starting 5 is so good how come they cant win games by themselves? i think most people on vancouver's side are making excuses on why they can't win games. "misery loves company" btw dickerson as an athletic joe dumars is an excellent comparison. ------------------ --TEX
Your argument simply doesn't make sense: Bibby is worth more as a PG, even though he has more talented players around him, and wins less. Go figure. You contradict yourself enormously, headshake. Vancouver is a great city though, and I wish them the (2nd) best. [This message has been edited by haven (edited February 25, 2000).]
That's aboot the nicest Canuck I ever met, and you guys are trying to shred him for relatively innocuous comparisons. Frankly, I would rather have MD. He's wicked quick, and he doesn't make the Cattish turnovers. Have you ever seen MD go 2-13, drain a three, and run the length of the floor with his hands in the air like Carl Lewis, only to get crisped on the transition D? At draft time, we heard Cat was a defensive presence. When? Where? Why not now? Defensively, while MD cannot accomplish stifling, Andersonian feats, he does have the quickness to compensate well, and he doesn't lose his focus on D, which seems to be a Catterly trait. I think we did get used on that trade. They got us to outbid all other suitors, and we gave up too much. Am I disappointed, hell no. Did we get used? Yeah, a little bit. I have always stayed loyal to Rockets long after they don other colors, and MD and Othella were two of my favorites. As long as they stay, Vancouver is my second favorite team and the only other Western Conference team I root for. While we have a stronger bench, better front office, and brighter future, The Head-Shaker is right that Francis/Mobley/Cato does not match Bibby/Raheem/MD. I am afraid that Cato and Mobley will hit a ceiling that their three will not. Cat and Cato rely on their hustle to compensate for a shortcoming in talent. Neither is a pure player. Cat's shot is as ugly as Big Country's folded gut, and Cato's footwork pales next to Big Honky. This is not to say that both won't have long and fruitful careers, but neither has the talent to dream of the Hall. Their three might. All of this is just to say... go easy on the Heddshaker, he's alot better than most of those snowbirds. I'd bet the hoose on it.
DAMNIT!...ARGH!!! SPENT FOREVER TYPING UP A LONG REPLY TO THIS THREAD ONLY TO HAVE MY PC CRASH! I've recovered now, so here I go again.... You guys are going too hard on "Give your head a shake". I think he brings up some good points. I disagree that the Grizzlies won the deal, but I think what Headshaker is trying to say is that the Grizz made the best of a bad situation. Steve Francis was not going to play for the Grizzlies, no matter what. There is no going around that, so they had to trade him. Many of you are bringing up, "you guys were stupid to give up Francis..." They got two solid, young players in Dickerson-Othella, and a good backup pg in Price. They turned a bad situation into a productive one, adressing their needs. Look at the Rockets, on the other hand. If they had acted earlier in the summer when Pippen first showed signs, we could have gotten much more in return. Instead, we waited until we had absolutely no leverage and received a shotblocking center with no offensive game, and a talented yet injury plagued forward. I give the Grizzlies props for getting what they needed, and not waiting too long. Who will have the better future? The Grizzlies have been a state of rebuilding for 5 years, while we have only been for 1/2 a season. Still, we are farther ahead. Mistakes like wasting high lotto picks on Reeves and Antonio Daniels have hurt, but not as much as signing Big Country to a long term deal. The hell were you thinking!? In Dickerson/Bibby/Rahim the Grizz show promise. The Rockets have Francis/Anderson/Thomas to counter. While your Big 3 has more talent, we have good trade bait in the likes of Drew,Cato,Mobley as well as a $4.5million trade exception at our disposal. Let's also not forget that Houston is a very player-friendly atmosphere, and I would give us a big edge in the environment category. I would say that in 1/2 a year, we have accomplished more than you have in 5 years, and we have a much brighter future ahead with a brilliant front office and scouting team. Keeping players in Vancouver will be a problem. I would not expect Othella Harrington to be in a Grizz uniform next season. Prior to the deadline he was being shopped to every team in the Western conference and to Indiana and Boston from the East. A Reeves/Othella package was tailor-made for some teams, but of course, nobody bit on it. Again I say, a mistake like re-signing Big Country will cost you eternally. To address the Francis vs. Dickerson/Bibby/whoever else you mentioned, argument, there is no argument. Steve Francis is the total package. The NBA has never in it's history seen a player of this kind. You bring up Marbury, but he does not make those around him better like Francis does. I would say Steve Francis is a more athletic, bigger version than Isiah Thomas. Francis gets his own, while drastically making those around him better, and controlling the game. He can post up, shoot the ball, drive, pass, lead the break, or set up in the half-court. Who else could hoist a chump like Matt Bullard into the Top-5 in 3point %? Dickerson however is an excellent off-guard, but he doesn't affect the game in every aspect like Francis does. That's not a knock on Dickerson, few guys do. Dickerson vs. Mobley: I'm going to have to say that Mobley isn't half the player Dickerson is. Michael Dickerson is what you need in a shooting guard. Bails his teammates out with his feathery jumpshot, athleticism to burn, the fastest man in the NBA, and a modest attitude. What is this Bsh*t about Dickerson not playing as hard as Mobley etc?! If Dickerson screamed after every made field-goal, and drove into the lane and took stupid shots, would you love him and say he played with 'heart'? What is this 'heart' bsh*t anyway? Can someone give me a definition? I want a guy who knows that his teammates need the ball too. A guy who can hit the 3, and will pick his spots. As I predicted this summer, Dickerson will one-day be an All-Star in this league. To my amazement, he is far ahead of schedule.
thecabbage, Yeah the "heart" thing is getting to be meaningless. As a Cat-lover, I can totally see you guys' side about, what is it that makes him have heart? That statement can be crap!! It is not "heart" that I look for, it is cockiness. I like players who are cocky and willing to test the limits of their games without caring about failure. The most important part of cockiness is hating to lose. So, what I like about Mobley is cockiness to drive and explore the limits of his game, cockiness to find out what the game looks like when you are elevated at the rim with a hand in your face, cockiness to take the shot when defenders are sagging and not letting you use your first step. But most importantly, cockiness to hate to lose so much you will listen to your coach and work hard throughout to year to make sure you are an effective weapon, which always means learning to exploit the other weapons on the floor. Don't take this as a comparison to Dickerson. Your comments about Dickerson are plenty, and I'm not disputing anything. And sure, cockiness has nothing to do with outward expression. I see buckets of confidence in Duncan's quiet demeanor. What is common to all cocky players is the way they don't let bad results bother them. And they improve their game every year. I see that in Mobley. That's why I like him. When he gets better at spinning shots in the hole from outstretched arms, and when he learns one killer move off the dribble, like a drop step, he will be a strong threat. I expect him to show up next Oct. with a new wrinkle to his game. That (adding a wrinkle) he has done each of the last two summers. I have confidence, he will do it again this summer.
okay, in defense of the grizzly's on the pick, i have to mention that vince carter played the small forward and they already have a great one in shareef. vince didn't fulfill any real need they had, so they didn't draft him. plus, the idiocy of the teams that didn't pick carter (gs warriors traded him for jamison) has only been revealed through hindsight. its easy for any of us to look at what carter has done in the league and say "wow, he should have gone number one, who were the idiots who passed him over?", but it is a much different situation when their potential in the nba has not even been judged yet.
You obviously don't watch any Vancouver games Tex, they play just as hard as Houston and have the same exact problem they can't finish what they started and thats all organization for not assembling a bench. The Rockets weren't **** with the Thomas-Patterson/Fitch-Chaney regime it was when they left that the Rockets became something. If you don't think organization means anything then you don't know crap about pro sports son. ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
Imagine if the Rockets would have drafted Jordan instead of Dream. ------------------ If you tell a joke in the forest, but nobody laughs, was it a joke?--Steven Wright
Yeah, but most people didn't think Jordan would be the greatest (or 2nd greatest) player to ever play the game. In that scenario, Hakeem was at the time possibly the best player in the draft as well. Can't blame the org for that pick. ------------------ <this space for rent>
Give Your Head a Shake Weren't you the one who came here and tried combining about 4 players' stats together and say since that total was greater than TMass and Francis', it meant the trade favored Vancouver? If so, you've redeemed yourself. Great points you make about Bibby. I like Bibby, but can't say I've watched too much of his game. The one plus I'll give Francis is that he has the explosiveness to elevate his team another notch that I don't see in Bibby. Combined with the fact that Francis can turn go from being a "pure" point guard to being a "shooting guard playing point" at will. If he needs to try and take over a game, he is capable, if he needs to run the offense and not worry about scoring, he can do that as well. More offenses are going to try and shut down Francis scoring than they will Bibby. What this ends up meaning is that others such as Mobley, Bullard, etc. are left open as the 2nd and 3rd options during the play. Dickerson has turned out to be a gem for you guys, and I wish we still had him. Re: Francis' ego. I just don't see the "ego" that people from Vancouver claim this kid has. He definitely is cocky, but from the day he's been here, he's said that he wants to be a point guard in the mould of Isiah Thomas. He's said he wants to get his players involved before taking his shots. If you look at his stats, the assists and points show this. On this team, he could be a 22-25 pts/game scorer easily if he were to think like a Marbury or an Iverson. He simply doesn't. Maybe "fleecing" is too strong but won't you feel a little bit funny about seeing that #1 pick float away or don't you sometimes imagine how Dickerson or Harrington would look rather than someone else on your bench? I think you did an excellent job of replacing these guys but replacing isn't the same as adding to what you already had in hand. You need to re-think your own statement. You are excluding the addition by focusing on the losses. We replaced Dickerson with Mobley and Anderson. We lost Othella Harrington, but I personally am starting to believe we have somebody who has more game than Othella -- Kenny Thomas (we'll see in about 2 years). But you're forgetting, we replaced these guys, added depth to our bench, AND added a Steve Francis. We not only replaced, but we GREATLy added to this team. The result is that we're only a couple of players and some experience away from possibly fighting for a championship. Our record belies the potential. If you don't think this statement is true, look at how quickly Sacramento turned the corner from being a bad team to a very good one. I don't see that happening in Vancouver. Regarding the first pick floating away, I don't feel bad at all. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we get one of Orlando's future picks in this deal? If so, we really didn't lose a 1st round pick at all. VeggieHead, Great points on the Rockets vs. Grizz future and organizations. I'll do a Francis3 and say, I agree with everything you said. Mobley's game is coming around. He's not jacking up insane shots as much anymore. You have to wonder how much better he'd be if he were a starter. As it is he's getting near-starter minutes, so who knows. ------------------ <this space for rent>
I second Heypartner's statement about the No. 2 pick, never use it for need! You pick the obvious best player. I am sorry, but I do not agree with the reasoning that since the Grizz had Abdur-Rahim, they didn't need Carter. Who in this league doesn't need Carter? Or better yet, who in this league would have passed on him in the draft if they had the chance to pick him? Regardless, I disagree that we paid to much for Stevie. I care not to compare statistics at this stage, but Stevie is a special player, and in a few years we will all forget about "what we gave up" for him because what Francis will bring to the Rockets will far outweigh what we gave to the Grizzlies. PLUS, who is going to attract more good players to their respective franchises - Francis or Dickerson??? You make the call. I see enormous drawing power coming from Stevie in the near future.
Hoop-T There is no such thing as the obvious best player in most drafts. Karl Malone was not the obvious best player, but turned out to be possibly the best PF ever to play the game. The Charles Barkley pick was booed and look how he turned out. He should've been an obvious top-level-pick-choice (if not the top pick). Jordan was probably considered the 2nd or 3rd best player in his draft. 'Nuff said. John Stockton was a 16th pick in the same draft that brought forth Hakeem and Michael. For God's sake, Lancaster Gordon was taken ahead of him. Was it because all the teams before them were "filling a need"? Nope. Nobody knew he'd be the greatest assist-man to play the game (by stats anyway). Vince Carter... I doubt too many people thought he'd be as great as he's become. He's following the Jordan pattern of coming in a dunker and now actually perfecting outside shots and mid-range moves. Clyde Drexler was a 14th pick in his draft, yet turned out to be one of the "50 best players in history" and the best player in his draft. The "obvious" best player in that draft was Sampson. My point is, most picks are made because the player being drafted will be a star at his position AND will help the team. Most players that turned out to become great AREN'T picked earlier simply because there is a consensus that his talent won't ever be great. People like Drexler and Malone became great after the fact. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it's the ultimate in myopia. ------------------ <this space for rent>
