Never date strippers, people. It's pretty simple. Pay for them and use them like they're using you. But never date them.
Yeah, I've heard that nothing in that song (Ironic) is actually true irony. Not that I really care...just passing it on. And my example probably wasn't. But why did that turn the whole thread around?
How about being afraid to fly, then finally getting up the nerve to do it, and the plane crashes....that's ironic, isn't it?
yes, behad, your example is ironic. as are most of the things mentioned in the song. the truth is that, somewhere, somebody thought they had a shot at bringing Alanis down by making fun of what are some, admittedly, questionable references to irony. a movement was started, and a lot of folks [like fadeaway, apparently] jumped on the anti-irony bandwagon. there is no more a causal relationship between a bunch of meteorologists' picnic and good weather than there is between a wedding and good weather. with both instances, there is an expectation and a hope of promising weather. it is the expectation of good weather that makes the rain situationally ironic. now, I might grant you that rain on the meteoroligists' picnic might be more ironic. but the wedding example is still irony, as are most of the other examples in the song.
Now, now. There's no need to get snarky calling me a bandwagon jumper and stuff. I draw my own opinions, thank-you very much. I never once said that every instance in that song isn't ironic, because some of them are. A rainy wedding, however, is not one of them. A weatherman's picnic is <b>expected</b> to be sunny because weathermen are supposed to know all the intricacies of predicting the weather. Wedding planners are not weathermen. Sure, they would probably <b>try</b> to hold the ceremony on a sunny day if they could (although that's usually pretty impossible considering you have to book the church, send out invites, etc.. weeks or months in advance) but it's not going to be a major (or even minor) coup if it starts to drizzle as the happy couple is walking down the aisle. People will merely cluck their tongues and say "oh well," and that will be that. If, however, it is sunny for 364 days a year, and your wedding happens to be on the one day of the year that it rains, then that would be ironic. In the real world, though, rained-on weddings occur too frequently for them to be considered ironic. A rainy wedding is no more ironic than me stubbing my toe during a badminton game. Both are unfortunate situations, but neither is ironical.
You people have turned a perfectly good thread about dating nasty women into a thread about irony, weddings and weatherman's picnics. Who says the BBS Hangout isn't a special place?
<B>there is no more a causal relationship between a bunch of meteorologists' picnic and good weather than there is between a wedding and good weather. </B> With a wedding, though, you <I>hope</I> for good weather. There's certainly no reason to expect it when you planned it months in advance. It's not ironic that something you hoped for didn't work out. I hope the Longhorns win every time they play. It's not ironic when they get their butt kicked, though. Now, with the meteorologist's picnic, presumably its scheduled more short-term and, given that they are meteorologists, there is some expectation that they would know the weather and would have planned it on a good day.
And it's only a matter of time before someone makes the obligatory Simpsons reference (I suggest "And I find it ironic that for once Dad's butt prevented the release of toxic gas." or something like that).
though I admit that the wedding/rain example is a debatable issue, I think that to suggest that it is simply not ironic is to ignore the cultural connotations of both weddings and rain. is there any connection between rain and bad moods? not really. as far as I know, weather doesn't have emotions. however, writers, filmmakers and all other sorts of storytellers have used rain, thunder and storms to connote impending doom, ie. something negative. the same is also true for weddings. though a wedding is neither an inherently good or bad thing, in and of itself, most people tend to think of them as happy, bright, joyous occasions. I really don't think that's disputable. now, if you're willing to argue that most people do not think of rain metaphorically as a "downer" and weddings as joyous occasions, then I'll agree to disagree. however, when she states that rain on your wedding day is ironic, I personally believe that ms. morrissette is right. the reason she is right is because of the traditional symbolic expectations both parts of the equation, rain and weddings, have in our society. the reason I don't think your example, passes the litmus test, is that I don't think most north american citizens automatically think, "the longhorns are playing. that's a situation where they should win." on the other hand, I do think most people think, "so-and-so's getting married. that should be a sunny, happy day." and because of that expectation or symbolic association, I still think it's ironic. it's because of the connotations involved. to say that rain on anyone's wedding day is not ironic is to ignore, in my opinion, those connotations.
Happy, yes. Sunny, no. Let me ask you this: Is it still ironic if it rains on a wedding in Vancouver, BC? They get rain nearly 75% of the year there, as do a lot of coastal areas. It would be an anomoly if it didn't rain on their wedding day. Now unless you're talking about a desert marriage, then rainy weddings, on the whole, happen too often to be considered ironical. Wedding <> Good weather
Actually, weather is known to affect moods. Depression is very high during the winter, not just because of the holidays and stress but because the sky is usually cloudier and there is less sunlight. That's why they have artificial sun way up north. The same thing happens on cloudy, rainy days. Gray and black are somewhat dismal colors and do contribute to people's moods. Really really hot days, like here in Houston during August, can drain people a lot and make them more tired, cranky and irritable. I'm not saying it is the primary cause of moods or it holds constant all the time. But weather can affect moods. How did this thread end up here?
you're still ignoring the connotations of both weddings and rain. no, a wedding in Vancouver, BC. would not be as ironic as a wedding in the desert, but by adding that twist to the simple idea of "wedding", you change the debate completely and put it in a place that no longer involves the song. you can do the same thing with any of the examples of irony, including the ones we presumably agree upon. is a meteorologists' picnic in Vancouver getting rained out as ironic as one in Phoenix? nope. is a fly in a bottle of chardonnay that's been left open as ironic as a freshly corked bottle? nope. it's irrelevant. at least within the context of the song, you can only evaluate "wedding" and "rain" on their own merits. clearly, you do not believe that there is an expectation of good weather for a person's wedding day. in movies, there is a cliche presentation of weddings, and it involves a bright, sunshine-filled day outside with the lawn chairs and the families and whatnot. I believe that morrissette is within her artistic bounds to play upon that cliche, that stereotype [whichever you prefer] and to label rain interfering on that cliche as ironic. just out of curiosity, which of the other examples in the song do you think ARE ironic?
You wanna know what's ironic? That a thread about strippers, in a sports-related bbs inhabited mostly by heterosexual (allegedly) men, had denigrated into a discussion of weddings, rain, terrible crappy pop music, and literery devices.
I'm not ignoring your connotations at all. I'm simply saying that you're wrong. As I've stated again and again, weddings do not automatically imply good weather. There are just as many rained on weddings as there are sunny weddings. One should not expect good weather just because they happen to be getting married on that day. That's silly. A wet wedding is unfortunate, but it isn't ironic. PS: Isn't there an old rhyme that says rain on a wedding is good luck? I'm almost positive I've heard something like that somewhere. PSS: Chiev -- is your shift key broken?
sure you are ignoring the connotations. you're trying to take all of the connotations that are implied in her song out. and I'm saying you're wrong. so there. nanny nanny boo boo. yes, weddings do imply good weather in certain contexts, most importantly the context of this song. you didn't answer my question about which examples you think are ironic. I'm open to having my mind changed about this topic, but until I see what your litmus test is for examples that are ironic, none of your arguments so far have caused me to think I'm wrong about this. so far, you've offered up the meteorologists' picnic as an example of irony, but I think that example only serves to prove my point more. you say, "weddings do not equal good weather." then you say, "a meteorologists' picnic getting rained out is ironic." I say, "a meteorologists' picnic does not equal good weather, either. if it doesn't, then by your logic, neither of these examples are ironic. by my logic, both examples are ironic." sooo. . . what else do you say is ironic, and why? smartass answer 1: no, it's just hard to hit the shift key and type while I'm flipping you off. real answer: no, I'm just willfully disobeying the rules of capitalization. in casual typing, I don't care to go to the trouble of all those shift key presses. and Princess, this thread wound up here because someone accused you of wrongly using the word "ironic". p.s. fadeaway, why do you care so much about this particular topic? most people would not still be engaged in this discussion.
All this ironic B.S. because yet another guy on this BBS wanted to try to prove that he was smarter than a girl. If anyone but Princess would've said 'ironic', this never would've happened. Man, a lot of you guys must have been serious geeks in high school.
It's ironic that a high school English teacher would choose to forego capitalization. I don't know. What's your reason?
I've remained in the discussion because I am a high school English teacher, and I'm responsible for teaching this stuff. so, to me, it's worth getting to the bottom of it all, or at least testing what I know or think I know.
