I'm using the PHX game to point out to you how inconsequential Harden's turnovers are, if they're so critical and will prevent the rox from winning a championship how come the Rox blow out their opponents when Harden has 9 turnovers? You isolate one factor but forget the big picture. If one game is too small how come the Rox have 3rd seed when Harden has legendary amount of turnovers? If the Rox have been blowing out teams with Harden getting 7 turnovers a game how can you say his turnovers will prevent the team from winning a ring? So you can be up by 29 pts but somehow you the refs will say you lose because Harden had 7 tos? You cant be the perfect player in basketball, if Harden has high TOs but he's still the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league even with that then whats the problem? Nobody is perfect why do you keep on harping on something that doesnt prevent 29 pt leads from happening? Harden has never been a defensive juggernaught why are you judging based on his defense vs his turnovers and getting a net from that? Harden's turnovers aren't offset by his offensive turnovers (steals?), its offset by all his assists, which are a freaking 12 assists per game. A good metric of this is +/-, if Hardens tos are a problem it would show on his differential. How come Harden's differential is so high if his TOs are hurting the team? Also you already know why Harden is getting a lot of turnovers, he's the sole playmaker so he gets all the team's turnovers. If you're gonna tell me Harden gets so many turnovers then what about Anderson, Ariza and Capela who get almost no turnovers because all they do is catch and shoot? Thats why focusing on one guys tos are dumb you said it yourself bball is a team sport. If you get another playmaker Hardens TOs will go down but then the playmaker will increase his TOs, you're shifting the burden from one player to another thats why this idea of yours is so dumb because the team TOs will still remain the same.
So then we can win with this many turnovers simply by scoring more points than the opponent just like we've been doing.
Sorry bud. If you can't tell the difference between blowing out a lottery team in a single December game and attempting to win 4 of 7 games played against the Spurs, Warriors, Clippers, Grizzlies, and Cavs in May and June then nothing else I would say is going to make any sense to you.
Sure. But here's the problem. We won't be able to outscore all our opponents in the playoffs by turning the ball over this much. Comprehende?
Because.... all these turnovers from harden cause the opponent to score points off those turnovers therefore we have to score more points than usual so then we win... Did I do it right?
lol @ putting Avery Johnson, Sam Cassell, Tony Parker, Magic Johnson and James Harden in the data set, claiming we will not win unless Harden's TO's fall within range of the average PG. Just hilarious stuff, and really a childish reading of data to patch up giant holes in this argument. There is no reason why a player can't fall outside the data set and win. If you plan to win in a traditional way, then your playmaker has to fall in the traditional set. When your team is experimenting to the tune of almost unprecedented playing style and your playmaker is a totally different animal than what you would normally call a playmaker, you can't rely on that data to make definitive statements. The only conclusive thing here is there are no PG's exactly like James Harden who have won the championship. Big whoop. In this league, you have to create data sets, not fall into them. Some people are just eternal followers. Morey, MDA and Harden are the exact opposite of that. That's why Morey decided to extrapolate new possibilities out of existing data, he didn't try to build a traditional team. That's why MDA decided "F the haters, 7 seconds or less" and invented the system the Warriors won with, that's why James Harden is a 6'6 guy averaging 12 assists. When was the last time that happened? lol Damn minions.
This is Harden's first NBA season with a 2:1 assists to TO ratio. Savor it. Even Jerry Lin has had more 2:1 seasons.
Its not just blowing out a lottery team bud, the Rox have the 3rd seed with Harden getting 5.5 tos a game so how is harden's turnovers hurting the team? The Rockets as a team already have an average turnover rating compared to other championship teams. So wheres the huge turnover problem for the rockets? Harden has more turnovers than normal but the rest of the team has less turnovers than normal so the rockets still have average rate of turnovers when you combine them. How hard is that to process? If Harden has 30% more than other championship pgs Anderson has 30% less as a starting pf, Capela has 30% less as a starting center and Ariza has 30% less as a starting sf. You keep making generalizations and dont address points against your argument because the board collectively has already shut this nonsense down.
This whats dumb about holic's argument. Harden more than makes up for his turnovers with assists. Its like someone looking at 5 misses a game not realizing you have 15 shots overall with 10 makes.
2012-13 Rockets Pace: 96.1 AST/G: 23.2 TOV/G: 16.4 ORTG: 109.7 2013-14 Rockets Pace: 96.3 AST/G: 21.4 TOV/G: 16.1 ORTG: 111.0 2014-15 Rockets Pace: 96.5 AST/G: 22.2 TOV/G: 16.7 ORTG: 107.0 2015-16 Rockets Pace: 97.6 AST/G: 22.2 TOV/G: 15.9 ORTG: 108.3 2016-17 Rockets Pace: 98.0 AST/G: 25.5 TOV/G: 16.1 ORTG: 115.0 Spoiler
Holic makes a valid point with Hardens TOs he just overdoes it 10000% like saying we can't win with his TO's. Yes It's an issue especially against the elite teams but of course Houston can win with his TO's because we've been doing it all year it just gets harder against good teams. I think every Rockets fans would love it for Harden to cut down his TO's but that's never going to happen. Holic needs to just accept it and move on.
But Hardens turnovers are a function of the rest of the team being catch and shoot guys, since the rest dont handle the ball all turnovers will be credited to Harden. If Harden makes a good pass but Ariza isnt looking then the turnover still gets credited to Harden, thats why singling out Hardens tos are dumb because all the tos of the entire team get frontloaded to him as the playmaker. If your gonna blame harden for tos then you should also give credit to him lessening the tos of all the other guys.
Not quite true. You'll need to find assisted shot shooting percentages vs unassisted shot shooting percentages, and I would say it gives the assisted shots an edge, but perhaps not as much as you'd think.
Even the assisted shots are kinda loopy because hockey assists arent credited though. Harden doesnt get credited when he draws the double team, passes it to someone and then someone passes it to another dude for the open shot. Harden contributed 70% of the assist but it just goes to another rocket
So yeah, people need to get off his back. He's never been good at protecting the ball, his TOs are high, but despite it he still makes this team better. If we replaced Harden with anyone outside Lebron, Curry, Westbrook, Paul and Durant, we'd be the 8th to 10th seed in the playoffs. But yeah, I do hope he was averaging 4.5TOs instead of 5.5TOs.
