haha yea i met john lewis briefly, when Mccain said that I thought no way that John Lewis and John Mccain actually are friends. John Lewis is very against the war in iraq and they disagree on pretty much everything else
Find me another example of "above my pay grade" meaning "God only knows". Again, why didn't he simply say "God only knows" then?
It is obvious that is what he meant. Seriously, when I heard him say that it made perfect sense and it was a thoughtful answer, I am shocked that this is turning into an issue. In hindsight he should have dumbed it down for the common man, but these republican spinsters are smart enough to know better, like Obama said, some people take pride in being ignorant.
And as for your example, from the book "Fire and Rain: The wild hearted faith of elijah" by Pastor Ray of Keep Believing ministries: I can get more examples if u wish.
Thanks, ROX, but the person I took the time to reply to has simply ignored it. Sometimes, I wonder why I go to the trouble. I know a lot of the folks here, probably most of them, can type pretty darn well, but I'm a two-fingered guy. Sometimes I'll toss in another finger and a thumb. This is a rather labored deal for me. Heck, my 12 year old daughter blows me out of the water without even trying. My 17 year old son is at 50, 60, or 70 WPM, the devil. Anyway, the least mc mark could do is respond, even if it's to say my post sucked, you know? A couple of other things... what's with the Nazi/WWII BS? Who cares? And another thing. If Senator Obama, who I would vote for 30 or 40 times in November, given half a chance, had done so well in this "forum," why wasn't there immediate threads started touting his effort? It's not my fault that Trader_J started this thread and posted something I largely agreed with. Even a broken clock gets the time right once in a while, or some damn saying like that. Geez. Impeach Bush/Cheney.
Have you got a better example of how passive resistance-civil disobedience would have failed to stop the march of evil?
Geez is right! I didn't respond because you made a valid point and I agreed. Some people are so sensitive these days!
Why? It was one of the most dramatic questions posed in the Civil Forum and this thread is about who shone better in that event....
Okay, this is just golden. This us about the "cross in the sand" story. It seems that McCain stole this story from a man named Alexander Solzhenitsyn. McCain has written about him in his past books. [rquoter]Did McCain Steal His “Cross in the Dirt” Story At Saturday's Forum From Solzhenitsyn? by Mark Nickolas August 17, 2008 http://www.politicalbase.com/profile/Mark Nickolas/blog/&blogId=3133 The blogosphere is abuzz right now over the discovery that a POW story told by John McCain (R) at Saturday night’s presidential forum is eerily similar to one told by Alexander Solzhenitsyn in his famous book The Gulag Archipelago which chronicled his time in a Soviet labor camp in the 1950s and 1960s. Here’s what McCain told Saddleback Church’s Pastor Rick Warren last night -- according to the unofficial transcript released by the church: It was Christmas Day, we were allowed to stand outside of our cell for a few minutes, and those days we were not allowed to see or communicate with each other although we certainly did. And I was standing outside for a few minutes, outside my cell. He came walking up. He stood there for a minute and with his handle [sic] on the dirt in the courtyard he drew a cross and he stood there and a minute later, he rubbed it out and walked away. For a minute there, there was just two Christians worshiping together. I'll never forget that moment. Now check out how what Solzhenitsyn wrote in The Gulag Archipelago: Along with other prisoners, he worked in the fields day after day, in rain and sun, during summer and winter. His life appeared to be nothing more than backbreaking labor and slow starvation. The intense suffering reduced him to a state of despair. On one particular day, the hopelessness of his situation became too much for him. He saw no reason to continue his struggle, no reason to keep on living. His life made no difference in the world. So he gave up. Leaving his shovel on the ground, he slowly walked to a crude bench and sat down. He knew that at any moment a guard would order him to stand up, and when he failed to respond, the guard would beat him to death, probably with his own shovel. He had seen it happen to other prisoners. As he waited, head down, he felt a presence. Slowly he looked up and saw a skinny old prisoner squat down beside him. The man said nothing. Instead, he used a stick to trace in the dirt the sign of the Cross. The man then got back up and returned to his work. As Solzhenitsyn stared at the Cross drawn in the dirt his entire perspective changed. He knew he was only one man against the all-powerful Soviet empire. Yet he knew there was something greater than the evil he saw in the prison camp, something greater than the Soviet Union. He knew that hope for all people was represented by that simple Cross. Through the power of the Cross, anything was possible. Solzhenitsyn slowly rose to his feet, picked up his shovel, and went back to work. Outwardly, nothing had changed. Inside, he had received hope. Isn't it odd that McCain and Solzhenitsyn would have experienced such nearly identical events during their respective captivities? And note that Solzhenitsyn’s event happened well before McCain’s but wasn’t published until after his release. But the coincidences get even more troubling. First, know that McCain is a very big fan of Solzhenitsyn’s and is fond of referencing him. In McCain's 2007 book Hard Call: Great Decisions and the Extraordinary People Who Made Them McCain devotes an entire chapter to Solzhenitsyn and his experiences as recounted in The Gulag Archipelago. In June 2005, after Sen. Dick Durbin (D-IL) found himself apologizing for likened FBI reports of military tactics used at Guantanamo Base to techniques used in Nazi Germany, the Soviet gulag and Pol Pot's Cambodian "killing fields,” it was none other McCain who blasted Durbin publicly, offering this bit of advice during an appearance on Meet the Press: "Senator Durbin owes not only the Senate an apology -- I don't know if censure would be in order -- but an apology because it does a great disservice to men and women who suffered in the gulag and in Pol Pot's killing fields. Dick Durbin should be required to read Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's 'Gulag Archipelago' and I think that he may have a better understanding that there's no comparison whatsoever. And it does a great disservice to the majority of men and women who are serving in Guantanamo who are doing the job that they're told to do and they're doing it in a humane fashion. To tar the American servicemen and women with a brush that applies to the gulag or the killing fields is a great disservice to the men and women in the military who are serving honorably down there." Also, after Solzhenitsyn passed away a few weeks ago, The New York Sun published an excerpt from McCain’s own book (Hard Call) regarding Solzhenitsyn as an op-ed tribute. Could these be pure coincidences? I suppose. But a number of bloggers have pointed out a number of another eyebrow-raising discoveries. Top of that list is the fact that upon his release as a POW, McCain penned a 12,000 word reflection of his POW experiences for U.S. News & World Report. Yet, one Daily Kos writer notes that “[e]ven though McCain goes into a lot of detail in that story and mentions religion a few times, there is no mention of the cross in the sand story, even though it would have fitted in well with the whole narrative." The writer also notes that in 1974, McCain spoke at a prayer breakfast with then-Governor Ronald Reagan and tells a stirring story about seeing words about Christ while a POW, but fails to mention the very relevant cross in the sand story. Even more problematic is that McCain’s own account of that Christmas shows him moving from the prison: In December of 1969 I was moved from "The Pentagon" [he means "The Plantation" camp] over to "Las Vegas." "Las Vegas" was a small area of Hoala Prison which was built by the French in 1945. Furthermore, it seems that McCain's own telling of this story has now changed a good deal. Here's what Beliefnet.com’s Steven Waldman wrote: McCain tells the cross in the sand story in his 1999 memoir, Faith of My Fathers: "We both stood wordlessly looking at the cross until, after a minute or two, he rubbed it out and walked away. I saw my good Samaritan often after the Christmas when we venerated the cross together." In his campaign ad in December, he adds mention of "the true light of Christmas": "We stood wordlessly looking at the cross, remembering the true light of Christmas. I will never forget that no matter where you are, no matter how difficult the circumstances, there will always be someone who will pick you up." At the Saddleback Civil Forum: "For a minute there, it was just two Christians worshipping together." The story has gradually morphed from being about the humanity of the guard to being about the Christian faith of the guard and John McCain. Finally, be mindful that this isn’t the first time this year that McCain has been called out for playing fast and loose with his POW experience. Recall this post here at Political Base from July 11, 2008: Here's what McCain said on Pittsburgh radio yesterday: "When I was first interrogated and really had to give some information because of the physical pressures that were on me, I named the starting lineup -- defensive line -- of the Pittsburgh Steelers as my squadron-mates!" Here's what McCain wrote in his book, Faith of my Fathers: Pressed for more useful information, I gave the names of the Green Bay Packers' offensive line, and said they were members of my squadron. I did a Lexis/Nexis search about McCain's captivity and all of them showed-up naming the Green Bay Packers. What is going on here? Did McCain lie to Pastor Rick Warren in a church this weekend about his POW experience in an attempt to kiss-up to Evangelicals who are already very concerned about his bona fides on faith and religion? Could there have been a worse venue and context for such a lie? But the big question is whether our feckless national media will even bother following-up on this troubling development as they did with by promoting the GOP-pushed meme of exaggerations by Al Gore in 2000 or John Kerry’s Vietnam War experiences in 2004 as the Swift Boat liars peddled? I suspect American journalism is in such a sorry state these days that they won’t bother devoting equal time and resources to something so potentially explosive in 2008.[/rquoter] <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-4bTvhXMO7I&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-4bTvhXMO7I&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Solzhenitsyn is worth reading, in great quantities and with repetition, whatever you think of this mini-controversy. So much of public speaking is appropriating. There are three possibilities here with McCain: (1) It is absolutely true that he and Solzhenitsyn had the same exact experience with a guard. (2) He has knowingly appropriated/stolen the story and figures he can get away with it, or (3) He has incorporated this deeply into his memory of his struggle, confusing it with the writing of Solzhenitsyn, even though it did not literally happen to him. Have no idea which is true, and maybe nobody could be sure, unless the Vietnamese guard can be found (!). Option #2 says something slightly negative about his "straight talk," and option #3 wouldn't be that big of a deal actually. Apparently, studies show we all warp our stories of the past.
Excellent, reasoned response, B-Bob. Forgive me if I still hope McCain gets hammered for it. Politically, he deserves to be. Were Obama to make the same kind of statement, I have no doubt that it would be turned into a huge story. Impeach Bush/Cheney.
Thanks, Deck, and you're right. Fox news would be running non stop with this sort of thing, if Obama had such a connection. It is a bit damning if McCain has referenced his respect and reading of Solzhenitsyn... I mean... it's not something everyone reads. (By the way, I cut and paste the name Solzhenitsyn every time. )
I'm a terrible speller! I cut and paste all kinds of "hard to spell" (for me) names. Heck, not only names. One of the things that slows me down is spell checking something I'm not sure about before I post it here. I wish the BBS had a spell check! Impeach Bush/Cheney.
Hard for a young feller like yourself to understand, but I'm sure that some of my college memories are half-fabricated. Really the PCP? And she did what exactly? While the car was MOVING? Yeah, dude. But you're right, it wouldn't be a vote for the sharpest mind. And since I haven't seen it posted, a scree on McCain's performance by CNN's Jack Cafferty: Cafferty commentary -- CNN ---- "NEW YORK (CNN) -- Russia invades Georgia and President Bush goes on vacation. Our president has spent one-third of his entire two terms in office either at Camp David, Maryland, or at Crawford, Texas, on vacation. His time away from the Oval Office included the month leading up to 9/11, when there were signs Osama bin Laden was planning to attack America, and the time Hurricane Katrina destroyed the city of New Orleans. Sen. John McCain takes weekends off and limits his campaign events to one a day. He made an exception for the religious forum on Saturday at Saddleback Church in Southern California. I think he made a big mistake. When he was invited last spring to attend a discussion of the role of faith in his life with Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton, at Messiah College in Pennsylvania, McCain didn't bother to show up. Now I know why. It occurs to me that John McCain is as intellectually shallow as our current president. When asked what his Christian faith means to him, his answer was a one-liner. "It means I'm saved and forgiven." Great scholars have wrestled with the meaning of faith for centuries. McCain then retold a story we've all heard a hundred times about a guard in Vietnam drawing a cross in the sand. Asked about his greatest moral failure, he cited his first marriage, which ended in divorce. While saying it was his greatest moral failing, he offered nothing in the way of explanation. Why not? Analysis: Is McCain finding his way on faith? Throughout the evening, McCain chose to recite portions of his stump speech as answers to the questions he was being asked. Why? He has lived 71 years. Surely he has some thoughts on what it all means that go beyond canned answers culled from the same speech he delivers every day. He was asked "if evil exists." His response was to repeat for the umpteenth time that Osama bin Laden is a bad man and he will pursue him to "the gates of hell." That was it. He was asked to define rich. After trying to dodge the question -- his wife is worth a reported $100 million -- he finally said he thought an income of $5 million was rich. One after another, McCain's answers were shallow, simplistic, and trite. He showed the same intellectual curiosity that George Bush has -- virtually none. Where are John McCain's writings exploring the vexing moral issues of our time? Where are his position papers setting forth his careful consideration of foreign policy, the welfare state, education, America's moral responsibility in the world, etc., etc., etc.? John McCain graduated 894th in a class of 899 at the Naval Academy at Annapolis. His father and grandfather were four star admirals in the Navy. Some have suggested that might have played a role in McCain being admitted. His academic record was awful. And it shows over and over again whenever McCain is called upon to think on his feet. He no longer allows reporters unfettered access to him aboard the "Straight Talk Express" for a reason. He simply makes too many mistakes. Unless he's reciting talking points or reading from notes or a TelePrompTer, John McCain is lost. He can drop bon mots at a bowling alley or diner -- short glib responses that get a chuckle, but beyond that McCain gets in over his head very quickly. I am sick and tired of the president of the United States embarrassing me. The world we live in is too complex to entrust it to someone else whose idea of intellectual curiosity and grasp of foreign policy issues is to tell us he can look into Vladimir Putin's eyes and see into his soul. George Bush's record as a student, military man, businessman and leader of the free world is one of constant failure. And the part that troubles me most is he seems content with himself. He will leave office with the country $10 trillion in debt, fighting two wars, our international reputation in shambles, our government cloaked in secrecy and suspicion that his entire presidency has been a litany of broken laws and promises, our citizens' faith in our own country ripped to shreds. Yet Bush goes bumbling along, grinning and spewing moronic one-liners, as though nobody understands what a colossal failure he has been. I fear to the depth of my being that John McCain is just like him."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080907/D932334O2.html Obama says he was too flip on abortion question Email this Story Sep 7, 3:51 PM (ET) WASHINGTON (AP) - Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama acknowledged Sunday that he was probably too flip when he said it was "above my pay grade" to answer a question about when is a baby entitled to human rights. Obama gave his answer last month at a nationally televised religious forum sponsored by minister Rick Warren at his megachurch in Orange County, Calif. Asked on Sunday whether the "above my pay grade" answer was too flip, Obama said: "Probably. ...What I intended to say is that, as a Christian, I have a lot of humility about understanding when does the soul enter into ... It's a pretty tough question. "And so, all I meant to communicate was that I don't presume to be able to answer these kinds of theological questions," he said in an interview broadcast Sunday on ABC's "This Week." In a separate interview, the answer to a similar question came easier for Obama's running mate, Sen. Joe Biden. A Roman Catholic, Biden said he accepts his church's teachings that life begins at conception, but that the issue is personal for him. He said it wouldn't be right to impose his views on others who are just as religious as he is. "I'm prepared as a matter of faith to accept that life begins at the moment of conception. But that is my judgment," Biden said on NBC's "Meet the Press.""For me to impose that judgment on everyone else who is equally and maybe even more devout than I am seems to me is inappropriate in a pluralistic society."
