I understand there are different religions, and all, but what I really understand is I benefit from my Christian religion. My family benefits from our belief. That's fine -- and you have every right to teach your kids your religion. The question is, why do you insist on having the government teach other people your religion? How would you like it if your kids were told at school that the Muslim or Hindu religion was the right one? And that they should recite their prayers every day? Now reverse it and explain why you think it's acceptable for kids of other religions to be told in school that Christianity is the way to go? (by having Christian prayers and what not) ------------------ http://www.swirve.com ... more fun than a barrel full of monkeys and midgets.
"Maybe we should bring prayer back in schools.." Maybe we should instill love and compassion into our children. Prayer isn't needed. Love and respect for life is. ------------------ Everything you do, effects everything that is.
If that is acheived, then I'll be happy. Shanna, I think you misunderstood me. I do not want anyone pushing my religious beliefs to others. What I am hoping for is similar to what Achebe posted - believe it or not. His post reflects a viable option that I accept. The idea of having time arranged to acknowledgde your spirtual concerns is something that only seems as a positive thing. People who are Atheists could have a time for them as well - with my hope they don't feel pressure to anything. Call this "reflection time" or whatever. I know there are complexities in establishing this, but I just think that prayer is a good thing and may help people in their problems. To me, this is a way to get at "the root" of the problem. ------------------ Sometimes you gotta do the next best thing!
Our society (just like many of our families) has no centering principle. God is booted out of schools. Values are relative. Anything goes. Without a centering principle, there is no true diversity-- just mayhem whereby anything goes. Starting to look anarchical! The greatness of America is not that anyone can come here and just change her. That would be self-destructive. The greatness of America is that those who come are welcome to co-exist with the American political system, the American social system, the American economic system, AND the American religious tradition. Granted, the process is not perfect. It is undermined by human prejudice and greed, but America has inflicted no wide-scale genocide as we have seen throughout history. Her citizens enjoy a level of freedom and security seen NO WHERE ELSE IN THE WORLD. Slavery is not an American invention. It was a worldwide phenomenon seeing even Blacks owning Black slaves. We are no more or less guilty than the rest of the world which owned slaves. We didn't treat the Native Americans any worse than they treated each other. They were constantly at war with one another centuries before the west was won. Like it or not, America is a republic founded on Judeo-Christian traditions. When you cut those traditions off, she suffers. Our schools fail. Our families divorce. Let's not let our nation topple! ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. PowerbizOnline.com
A big problem with this plan (besides the whole God in school issue) is that it would be a form of segregation based on religious preference. And if we all remember our government classes, we remeber that "separate but equal" didn't fly with the Supreme Court. I think it's important to relize that public schools cannot be all things to all people. They are there to give the basic education that is most acceptable to the greatest number of people. At this point, denominational prayer is still not acceptable to the majority of those that send their children to public schools. Of course, for those who are interested in a religious education for their children, their are options for private schools and home schooling. And before you claim it's unfair that those wanting a religious education must go elsewhere, let me say that if I had a child I wouldn't send her to public schools either. As a product of public schools in three different states, I personally don't feel that public education is challenging enough or that it allows enough freedom in learning. But, I also understand that they exist to teach to the majority, not my small minority opinion. ------------------
I hope all of that helps you sleep better at night, man. But it presents a distorted view of history. Yes the Africans owned slaves before the US did, but we made it a thriving industry (encouraging the capture of more enemy tribesmen), and made slavery generational and racially discriminatory. And the Native Americans fought amongst themselves, but it took the white man to bring firepower the likes of which they had never seen and diseases which wiped out their population better than our guns did. And then the American settlers herded them up like cattle and shipped them across country, where many more of them died, breaking treaties and promises with the tribes whenever it was convenient to do so. That was genocide, whether you want to believe it or not. As for the Judeo-Christian traditions, I would contend that countless numbers have been killed in the name of Christianity over the generations, starting with the Crusades. If all of these killings prove that society is lacking something, that something is a moral center. But I don't know that sanctimoniously forcing Christianity down people's throats is the cure. ------------------ In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
Sam Cassell (my favorite ex-Rocket!): In fact, I sleep lousy at night, but it's not because of my faith or my world view. This middle-age thing is for the birds. Why do you characterize slavery in the US as thriving? At that point in history our population was proportionally much smaller and the incidence of slave ownership was not exceptionally high. I know you want to equate the burgeoning US slave industry to the economic impact of the introduction of the Windows operating system but I don't think it flies. Slavery is by definiition imposed on someone "different" from oneself. Europeans in America sadly but conveniently picked Africans. Native Americans settled on rival tribesmen. And who did the Egyptians enslave? Which is sadder? North American settlers did not round up the Native Americans; the US Army did. The motive in part was to protect the population. There was tragic loss of life (on both sides) but it hardly amounts to a genocidal campaign against the Indians. That would have been the war that Viet Nam was supposed to have been. The Crusades did not take place in the US. Tell me, my friend, where is it better? ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. PowerbizOnline.com [This message has been edited by RichRocket (edited March 06, 2001).]
there we go! It just wouldnt be a political thread without Mc Mark's opinion ------------------ Church-Going-Foul-mouthed-Pig-Loving Rocket-Fan extrodinaire.
RichRocket, sorry man. I reread my post and I came on a little too self-righteous. The impetuousness of youth! My dreams include both becoming rich and becoming a Rocket. Sadly, neither is likely. I do stand by my general points. The US demand for slaves increased their "production," so to speak, in Africa. And from my limited understanding slavery in the US was qualitatively different from slavery in Africa. As for the sometimes gradual, sometimes speedy elimination of Native Americans by Westerners (whether it was settlers, the US Army, or whoever), I am not the first to call it virtual genocide. And I think it applies. I don't know where I was going with the Crusades thing, other than to say that Christianity doesn't always stand for what's good in the world. The bible has been used to justify all manner of practices that today are abhored, including slavery. I think that instilling a moral a belief system in children is important, but I don't think it has to necessarily be a Judeo-Christian one. ------------------ In Italy for 30 years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder, and bloodshed, but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love - they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock.
North American settlers did not round up the Native Americans; the US Army did. The motive in part was to protect the population. There was tragic loss of life (on both sides) but it hardly amounts to a genocidal campaign against the Indians. I gotta believe quite a few Native Americans would disagree with you there. ------------------ Onions is all I eat!
If there were any validity to the idea that religion and prayer were the answer to crime and violence, it would be reflected in the prison population. The prison system is not, however, overrun with atheists. The prison system is overrun with theists. Atheists represent some 8-10% of the population, and yet less than 1% of the prison population. There exists absolutely no evidence to suggest that school prayer, forced or otherwise, would be anything other than divisive and a general waste of time better used to educate. Public schools do not exist for the purpose of playing make-believe. That's what churches are for. Use them.
I was thinking somewhere along the lines of having children merely going to different classrooms, much like LDS kids do in UT. Perhaps slcrocket could explain more in detail... I'm not so sure about this rascal... it seems as if most people actually want faith based education but can't afford it. I wonder if someone could bust out a cute pie chart for us... (hopefully from a reputable source Roxran j/k ) As an atheist, UU, LQ, TBuddhist, I agree. Unfortunately my wife totally disagrees with me except in cases such as the UT public school system. She wants to move pretty soon too, so I'm not sure how long my private school dream is going to last. ------------------ I'd rather be boinking my wife.
Jeff: If it were genocidal, wouldn't we have marched them off to some remote location and outright killed them? That's not exactly what happened. Granted it was a war of sorts with fighting and casualty on both sides, but how can you call it genocide? ------------------ Time is a great teacher-- only problem is it kills all its pupils. PowerbizOnline.com
Im not going to defend or argue this statement. But why has there been a tremendous moral decrease in the schools today, say compared to 20 years ago? And I mean moral decrease as in more deadly fightings, less respect to teachers, school shootings, organized gangs, ect ... What has happen between now and then? We have become stricter on everything. No public organized prayer, stricter gun laws, no corporal punishment in school, and parents live in fear of hitting their children. Im not saying these are good or bad, but just pointing out what has changed. ------------------ Nice guys finish last ... and im surely not going to finish last!
I agree with you to some extent with the corporal punishment issue Space Ghost. I liked to act up in class, but I knew where to stop because I knew if I crossed that line, I'd be coming ass to big holed belt by Coach Crockett, with my parent's approval. ------------------ www.swirve.com...The reason Al Gore invented the internet.
Rimbaud does not make sense. I don't buy his crap post. Everyone was poor 20 years ago? Kids wanted to explode and release tension? I don't want to be blunt, but what a crappy statement. These things did not happen with the frequency they are happening today. the real deal is there is more killing, raping, lying, cheating, stealing, than ever before and it will get worse. In a liberal world, we live in a world where its o.k. well I'm going to stand up and say it's no longer o.k. to murder. When I was a kid, I had fifty guns in the house - and knew responsibility, right from wrong. Now I have 63 guns! Guess what? I will never, never use my guns irresponsibly. I will never, never allow kids access and when my kids get older, they will learn what the gun is, its benefits, and the responsibilities that go with it. There were plenty of guns in the fifties, sixties, and seventies..Yet the last five years has shown more vile and degradation of society than in all those years. I contend it is the mindset of some members of society believing more and more in virtues of negative liberalism that has led to this. Without further digress, my main contention is a way to get back to the days when school killings wasn't a commonplace as it is now. I am confident in my suggestion of prayer. I realize prayer is not a cure-all. Prayer in school may not stop the epidemic-like trend of school shootings, but I feel it is a way to help people cope with problems in their daily lives. There are people who say: "school is for learning only, straight education, right down the center, and no deviation of alloted time to non-cirrucular scheduled planning." And..my response is I guess this is fine and good, but what about teaching people the tools to deal with problems, of course, the manner is decided by the student. I certainly would like my daughter to be taught that their are "tool/methods" to utilize in handling problems. As prevalent as religion is in the world, it only makes sense to at least afford students time and opportunity to address their religious concerns. ------------------ Sometimes you gotta do the next best thing!
ROXRAN, Are you dense? Why are you talking about me and not to me? I clearly said that those were things in MY school -- not everyone..and certainly not 20 years ago. If you think you know more about my highschool experience, go right ahead and be ignorant. My post is dumb...good argument I do not know how to counter that. ------------------ Whitey will pay.
