can we please stop talking about people's right to draw cartoons??? there is no question you and everyone else in this country has a RIGHT to draw these cartoons. no one in this thread is arguing otherwise.
That is the nature of FREE SPEECH, we have to protect the rights of everyone, even if they are offensive. I don't like the KKK and find them offensive but I am not going to go out and threaten them with violence or death..... That is precisely the point, you have to protect everyone's rights, no matter how offensive you may personally think they are......
it's not a free speech issue, dada. you have a right to draw this cartoon...no one is arguing otherwise here. that's not the issue. and if someone threatens violence or carries it out, lock 'em up. but let's stop pretending Islamic extremists have the authority to deny you First Amendment rights.
It is not about denying, it is about pointing out the violent reaction to something non violent like drawing a cartoon. You can not expect people to meet some mythical set of standards imposed by themelves upon someone else. DD
Most people wouldn't immediately turn violent at an offensive person or someone who did something offensive to them. Most people aren't violent by nature, I think. Still, don't you think some might get a bit violent if they saw the KKK carrying signs depicting black people as something animal in nature (such as Mohammed was depicted)? Yes, some people would indeed get violent. There are people who get violent. There are people who don't. But in the above example, I'm certainly not going to draw a cartoon depicting black people in a disparaging way just because some got violent at some KKK members for doing so. It teaches nothing. It is pointless. It is stupid. You are insulting all the non-violent folks and it's just ridiculous. Becoming violent over such things is silly. Egging it on further and insulting even the non-violent, non-complicit members of the same group is one of the most ridiculous things you can do. I find it hard to believe you cannot see this, so sorry, but I'm going to have to chalk it up to sheer intolerance of the Muslim religion as a whole, not just the extremists.
Well I certainly don't believe in any religion, that is no secret, so if that is how you feel, fine by me. DD
Lack of belief is not intolerance. Intolerance is essentially bigotry, or at least that was my meaning. I apologize for trying to sugarcoat it for you, bigot. And yes, I am being intolerant of your intolerance of a Muslim extremist group's intolerance.
You're making contradictory statements DaDakota. If someone polices their own, they are imposing their value on them. You are apparently against this. In fact, the only way your statements can be reconciled is if you mean that it's not ok for "them" to try to police you, but it's ok for "their own" to try to police "them"? Also, when you say they "their own" in this example, who are you referring to? I don't need to remind again... Peaceful Muslims certainly don't consider them to be "their own" therefore will not make any attempt to police them. The Danish (or Swedish or whoever) authorities are fully responsible. Asking someone else to do their job indicates to me that the authorities may be incompetent. If that's the case, please direct the criticism to the authorities. You will get Muslims denouncing these violent acts all the time - not out of some duty they have but just out of a sense of personal responsibility. Obviously, you have not seen them, because you are (1) not looking or (2) take what the media feeds you, which is a heavy dose of "violence sells, peace doesn't".
The sad part of it all: these extremists are willing to kill women, children, innocent people. Truly, my fear is that the people from this cartoon don't understand how dangerous and irrational they are. Let me give you an example of their irrationality. These people believe that the Prophet PBUH can/may grant them forgiveness on judgement day. They believe that if you see a woman's HAIR, you ARE OBLIGED TO MARRY her because it's kinda like you had sex. They do sincerely believe that the other 5 billion people on earth are not Muslim because they are stupid, racist or just completely evil. Some of them believe it's ok to take slaves, and it is your right as a slave owner to rape your slave as you wish. These are people who think that if they blow something up in Times Square, it doesn't matter who dies because they are fighting a just cause and anyone who dies, innocent or otherwise, goes to heaven (they actually think they're doing a favor). I have trouble believing they will ever even hear about this website. They will certainly hear ABOUT it. They will not ask why it's done or by who or anything of the sort. They will just react. You won't learn anything new about them. You won't learn anything new about other Muslims. You will just feel justified in what you did, and hide your shame/guilt when a few people are hurt or God forbid killed because of this. Then you're no different than they are - sacrificing a few humans in the name of free speech or morals or whatever you want to call your non-religious religion? Well done. From where I'm standing, you're looking more and more like "their own".
Anything you write about how crazy these extremists are and about how Muslims don't consider them their own and therefore do not need to police them is tainted by the fact that you take joy in the result of their actions (e.g. that the cartoonist has to live in fear for the rest of his life). So you are taking the convenient way out: Even though you - agree with them that they have a right to be offended - enjoy the result of their actions (that the cartoonist has to live in fear) - share the same religion with them you say at the same time that you have nothing to do with them and that you have no responsibility to police them because they are not really Muslims.
My God, it's oozing out of your ears. 1) I DO agree with them that they have a right to be offended. Why can't they be offended? I do not agree with the violence. 2) No, I want the attackers in jail, held accountable, responsible for their actions. The cartoonist got what he wished for - since it was a certainty rather than a possibility/risk that he would face such a reaction, and it had no potential upside, I take it that he made a decision to incite the wrath of extremist maniacs. Also, I'm personally of the opinion that he would be highly dissapointed if nothing happened. With that in mind, I'm glad he got what he wanted. A simple apology to (word for word) peaceful, non-violent Muslims who live within the confines of the law and who were supposedly not the object of his "test" would have sufficed - that doesn't go against his alleged morals or the object of his test. He's not apologizing for the drawing, rather for the indirect consequences to people who actually support his rights. Instead, he chose to throw around things like (paraphrased) "YOU SEE, I TOLD YOU, THIS IS HOW THEY ARE." Awesome. Good for him. If he had even just shut his piehole rather than opening his mouth and showing his bigoted mentality, I would be first in line lending him a hand, helping him out. If for a moment I thought he didn't know what he was getting into, I would be providing my moral support. As long as he's completely safe from physical harm and serious psychological harm, I have no problem with him having to look over his shoulder every other minute. He'll know how it felt to be a moderate, peaceful Danish Muslim at the office the day after his cartoons and the day after the attacks. So let's get this clear here and now. My disdain for this man is purely related to his personality, completely unrelated to his right to offend (which I am FOR) and independent of my support for holding violent people accountable. I don't like racist, bigoted people. Perhaps I have an unusual amount of disdain for them. Judging from your posts, I see now why an unusually high amount of emotion/disdain towards racism/bigotry would bother you. It all fits like a puzzle now. 3) I am not from their religion, and they are not from my religion. We share ONE book, and interpret it in a radically different way. They are not the same nationality, race, religion or geographic location as me. Nothing. I'd just like to point out the degree of offence I took to this statement (even if you could care less) is equal to how offended you would be if I saw you to share Adolf Hitler's ideology. From experience, I know you will attach a derogatory picture to your next post. Try not to pick on the poverty stricken, poor, hungry who have no rights. It's not a nice look for you.
No one is expecting you to do that, DaDa. And no one is saying the violence is ok. And though you keep saying it's about "defending your rights" it's not about that either. This discussion is about whether it's worth offending a whole group of people based on their faith because a minority of them do stupid crap..... and...it's about how ridiculously unimpactful this little show of force is likely to be. Given the second part, I have a hard time thinking it's a good idea to deliberately seek to offend a huge group of people, most of whom agree with you that the violent reaction is out of control, because of their faith tradition.
That's complete BS, he made the drawing for a local paper. He had no idea that it would get that much attention. That's YOU assuming something that is not true to justify your own hateful joy in his fear afterwards. You see, you justify you taking hateful joy in his misery by making assumptions in your own mind that he wanted any of this. I can assure you the guy certainly did not want this kind of hateful reaction from you and the other extremists. Nobody wants to have to live in fear and move around and have a panic room at his house and get attacked by islamo-fascist terrorists with an axe, together with his grandchild. You and your extremist friends want to force him into submission. You enjoy them threatening his life, because your goal in this regard is the same. I am impressed that he is not bowing to that pressure. He is risking his life to defend his and our freedom against your hate and your fellow extremists' threats and attacks. In fact, I just read an interview in which he clearly stated that he did not mean to offend regular muslims with his caricature, but wanted to point out that terrorists are holding Islam hostage. The interview is in German, but this is a literal translation of what he said. http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,572148,00.html Blablabla - of course he did not know what he was getting into - he drew a small cartoon for a local newspaper, obviously he did NOT know that you and your fellow extremists would get THIS crazy about it. He certainly did not know he would be attacked with an axe and that Muslims would be plotting to kill him and that the state of Jordan would indict him and try to sentence him and crap like that. If he were to say "I told you, this is how they are" - he would be right. Not with regard to all muslims, but if a whole freaking Muslim country goes and passes a new law just to be able to indict and sentence the guy over a freaking cartoon, then he successfully exposed hypocrisy and a huge culture clash between free countries and islamic countries. Oh, a nice qualifier to make you look better..."as long as he's safe"...BUT HE IS NOT. Islamic people plotted to kill him, a whole country (Jordan) passed a law to be able to sentence him, some islamo-fascist attacked him with an axe and YOU want him to live in fear for the rest of his life. He is NOT safe and you are taking joy in this, and that is what exposes you as the extremist that you are. That's bull****. None of these "moderate, peaceful Danish muslims" got attacked with an axe. And if some of them are getting unjustly blamed or threatened even though they personally did not do anything wrong, then it's very sad and it is wrong, but it's because craziness breeds craziness. The step to an escalation from satire to violence was taken by your fellow Muslim extremists first. By AGAIN stating that you want a peaceful man who has done nothing but draw a cartoon to live in fear for the rest of his life, you have exposed yourself AGAIN as a bigot. Everything else you say is tainted by that. All the other blabla you spew around it to make yourself look better - save it. That might be true for many aspects of it, but you both have no understanding for freedom of speech and you both justify putting someone in fear for his life over a freaking cartoon. Not as radically different as you try to pretend. You are an extremist, and you are trying to hide it with a lot of words and seemingly "moderate" talk. You have a few people fooled, including MadMax, but not everyone. As long as you don't go away from your stance that you want the cartoonist to live in fear for the rest of his life, you are exposed as an extremist. That's an interesting example. You could justifiably say that if I were to say "I don't want jews to be killed, but I want them to live in fear for the rest of their lives" - which is EXACTLY your stance on the cartoonist. I am not at all like that, so you saying I would share Hitler's ideology would get nothing but a laugh from me.
Yes, it is. It absolutely is, even though that will not go into your head because you still have this narrow-minded law school view that defending freedom of speech can only be against your own government. Freedom of speech can be threatened by non-governmental entities in reality, MadMax. Normally, you would turn to your government if the threats to your freedom of speech by other private parties are unlawful. But that would assume that your government has the ability to enforce anything against these people. In the case of Islamist extremists who make veiled threats, what exactly can the government do before something happens - not much at all. But still, they have managed to create an atmosphere of intimidation, which is exactly what has happened in many cases around the world and which is exactly what happened with South Park. The only way to respond to this is to show solidarity with the people whose freedom got threatened - simply also because not only their freedom got threatened, but everyone's freedom. Again, I understand that you have good intentions and are a noble man, but the point here is that not the whole group is in fact offended by this. The extremists (like Mathloom) are PRETENDING that everyone would be offended by it so that they can radicalize the whole group. Now, you bring up a fair question: Does this thing backfire in that it makes it easier for the more extreme elements of the group (like Mathloom) to incite the rest of the group? As I said, this is a fair question, but I don't think so. Reasonable muslims will understand that this only intends to show solidarity with the victims of their extremists and that it serves to expose these extremists (because they will be the ones crying about it, like Mathloom), and nothing else. It probably will be, but that does not mean it doesn't have a point. Again, the goal is not to deliberately offend a huge group of people. Many muslim posters have already posted that it is not even a rule in their faith that Mohammad cannot be depicted. And reasonable muslims will understand that this is a reaction to what the more extreme elements in their religion have done. They should be mad at the extremists in their faith, not at those who react to those extremists with a PEACEFUL cartoon drawing exercise. Any muslim who reacts highly offended to this is probably leaning toward the more extreme end of the spectrum. MadMax, you keep saying that this would offend a huge group of people, but that is simply not true. It will only offend the extreme elements of the faith.
Oh wow. I've never seen so many sensationalist overreacting thoughts together in my life. I'm very tired of you and you are really testing my patience with you circular logic. I'm going to withdraw from this by saying: If he apologized, as you claim he did, then I take back what I said. Could you please show the paragraph where he apologized? Lucky for us, I happen to sit right next to a German dude at work. I'll spend the next few minutes thinking about how you can apologize for something but also say you would do it again. Rest assured, every Muslim was offended by the depiction of their human role model as an ugly terrorist with a bomb in his turban. Some reacted violently, some care less about religion, and some were just offended. If you have not yet established that this is offensive to all Muslims in the context of the rule which DOES apply to almost all Muslims, you are surely deaf, blind and unaware of it. If you can not see how something can be a legal right and offensive at the same time, you must pick up a book or something. If I could leave you with one thought, it's to skim through this thread and notice how you have labelled all who agree with you as good guys and all who disagree with you, even in the slightest, as supporters or friends of violent extremists. You have done it basically without fail. There is not one person whom you have disagreed with without calling them some name, or attaching them to some disgusting group of people. In short: if they agree with you, they're awesome, if they don't, they're some sort of animal. Surely, in the hundreds of responses from a variety of posters, there must have been one guy who you disagreed with without hating. Even MadMax, who seems to disagree with my views and is vehement about protecting freedom of speech, you've thrown under the bus because he differs in opinion about the effectiveness of 20 May 2010. A simple and valid disagreement. How do you react? Good job. Sound familiar? How'd that work out? Thanks dude. I'll save you the time on your next post: I'm crazy psycho extremist, want to take over the world, hate freedom of speech, everyone must be Muslim, secretly conspiring and don't place value on other humans rights, I prayed for Michael Ballack to go down with injury before the WC and am therefore equivalent to the mythical devil in evil intentions. Cool? thanks.
Testing your patience? What are you going to do? He does not need to apologize. You and your fellow extremists want to force him into submission by making him apologize, but there is nothing he needs to apologize for. Again, he does not need to apologize for anything. How can you claim to speak for all Muslims? There were muslims on here who said they did not care about it. If they didn't care, how were they offended? I'm sure Monty Python's "Always look on the bright side of life" video offended some Christians...I don't see any Christians wanting to kill the Monty Python guys over it. If, as you claim, all Muslims were offended (which is obviously untrue), then the offended ones need to get their sensitivity level checked and need to calm down. Obviously something can be legal and still offensive to some people. That still does not justify your extremist stance of wanting someone to be in fear for the rest of his life over a freaking cartoon. This is another lie from you. I have a lot of respect for MadMax, and even though he disagrees with me, I can see where he is coming from and I would not even think for a second that he is a supporter or friend of violent extremists. There are other posters like BatmanJones or groogrux whom I might have called well-deserved names for other reasons, but I don't consider them supporters or friends of violent extremists either. The only one who I think shares the same goals to some extent as violent extremists (even though you do not appear to be violent) is you. Yes, I think his understanding that freedom of speech can only be threatened by the government is too narrow. I understand exactly where it comes from, though, because that is the way we were taught in law school. That doesn't mean I am throwing him under the bus or anything, though. You can try to make it sound funny, but it isn't: The truth is that you want a harmless old mean to live in fear for the rest of his life and you take joy in that - over a freaking cartoon. In that regard, you have the same viewpoint and share the same goals as the extremists. That is a fact.
Groogrux, answer this question please: Do you agree with Mathloom's stance of wanting the cartoonist to live in fear for the rest of his life because of a cartoon? x - Yes x - No
Wow. So people drawing cartoons of Mohammad = KKK, a group known for murdering people based on their skin color? It's pretty dishonest (or ignorant) to compare a race of people to a group of people who choose to believe in some ridiculous superstition and then expect the rest of the world to also live by those superstitions.
If you didn't notice with my quoted post, I did not make the reference or comparison first. If someone wants to make that agreeably wild comparison, I'm willing to indulge.
