Are u ****ing blind? Everyone stood around because SF was hogging the ball, and never even thought about passing. A good point guard would have made something happen, like driving to the hole and get a layup, or drive in and then kick it out for an open shot. Nooo, SF dribbled and dribbled around outside the key, and did not even look at his teammates. No court vision, no court sense, and no idea of the game situation at all. WTF, he jacked up a fadeaway three at the buzzer??? Airball waiting to happen. And u r trying to make up excuses for him?? BTW, Steve missed a wide open mid J in the last minute that would have tied the game. He's clutch? Nah, give me anyone else on the team who at least has an idea about the game of basketball.
It looks horrible, doesn't it? If you look at the first part of my post, you'd notice that there were plenty of other players whom I wanted to get for Francis. But they were just pipedreams, or overpaid. The horrible list the got left just shows you my feeling in this: Either Francis is severely overrated or there are too many severely overpaid players. BTW, for all those management bashers, look at all those bloated contracts in Smeg's list and you'd have some appreciation of what we've been doing personnelwise.
Dude, it's simple b-ball that EVERYONE, including all of the commentators and post-game analysts, understand. With 16 seconds left, you take it to the hole and either go for a quick 2 or draw in the D and kick it out for an open 3. You don't try to fake our rob horry like 3 times, then dribble all around the court to jack up a fading, fallaway 3 pointer. I'm not one to call out people concerning bball IQ, but if you honestly think that was the best, or 2nd best, or even 3rd best option on that play, I don't even know how to answer that.
Of all the people you just mentioned, Elton Brand is the ONLY one who's team has not been to the playoffs, and 4 of the people you mentioned have lead their teams to the NBA Finals. I would think that says a lot about their leadership skills. Nobody ever said that your only a leader if your team wins a championship, but leading your team to the playoffs certainly plays a part in distinguishing you as one.
yes, but you have to see that if francis one one or two games, they would of made it. And if t-mac(in the leastern conference) lost a g ame or two, he would of been out. So steve has the capability to win and go to the playoffs.
It's not about what woulda, shoulda, or coulda happened. It's all about results. And nobody said Steve did not have the capability to win or to go the playoffs, but only that it hasn't happened yet. Unless this season ends in disaster, we will more than likely make it to the playoffs.
Webber is about twice the player that Francis is. When healthy, he is probably the third best PF in the NBA. Francis is the second best point guard named Steve. Webber has come within one game of going to the NBA finals. Francis has come within one game of going to the playoffs. Marbury averages more assists, more points, higher shooting percentages and fewer turnovers than Francis. He also pushed the Spurs to six games in the playoffs. He has no more been the floor general for losing squads than Francis. He is also the same age as Francis. The same Jason Kidd that often leads the league in assists and has twice in a row led his team to the NBA finals. The same Jason Kidd that is usually regarded as the best point guard in the league. If I went by the names of the players (I assume you mean reputations), then I would want to keep 3 time all-star Steve Francis. Why do people always talk about our record without Steve when it is suggested that we trade him? No one suggests that we should cut Steve. Do you really think we would lose to Phoenix by twenty if Francis was replaced by Marbury, or by Kidd? I take from your post that you watch the NBA, but it is quite apparent that you don't understand it.
Actually I think this thread is very productive and thoughtful. I think that it would be great if we could get some players from that list for SF without gutting the rest of the team. This list gives us a basis to consider.
I guess it depends on how you define losing squads. Stephon has been on more under .500 teams, but Francis has been on an equal number of lottery teams, in 3 fewer total seasons.
I agree with you that Marbury & Kidd are better players than Steve, but Webber is a different story. People who have followed NBA long enough should remember that C. Webber is the guy who couldn't get the Warriors anywhere with Spreee, Chris Mullin, T.Hardware as his teammates. He failed miserably in Washington with teammates such as Juwan Howard, R. Wallance. The Kings had better or equal records without him this season and in the past. All this just shows you that Webber is a LOSER. The guy might have skills, aka, D. Colmon(sp?), but he is a ROLE player, not a franchise player you can depend on. I won't trade Steve for him! --daoshi
Webber only spent one year with the Warriors and they won 50 games that season and went to the playoffs. What's exactly the difference right now between Webber's stint in Washington and Steve's time in Houston?? I live in Sacramento and all media types here will tell you that Sac's best player is still Chris Webber. The reason why they lost to the Mavericks last year, a team they so oftened dominated, was because Webber was out. I do think Chris Webber is a bit overrated but to call him a loser or Derrick Coleman is was off-based. This guy works very hard in the off season and if you follow the NBA, he is definitely a top 5 PF.
Webber has career averages of 22.2/10.2/4.4 with almost 2 blocks per game on about 50% shooting. You don't have to worry about trading Francis for him because the Kings wouldn't trade Webber for 2 Steves. The only knock on Webber is a tendency to fade in the playoffs (which is legit, almost all of his numbers drop a bit in the playoffs), something Steve has never had to contend with, and his injuries. The injury is the only possible reason to not prefer Webber to Steve, but look at Mo, he was out for a whole season and only missed 10 games due to injury the next season. Webber also bounced back from his injury problems in Washington to play several 70+ game seasons.
I don't remember exactly the record the Warriors had prior to his arrival, but I believe they were a very good team already. He basically destroied the Warriors and anything Nelson had built for over the years. Of course, Nellie was just as guilty in that drama. That team had more talent than this Rockets team, still he couldn't do anything there. Everyone agreed that Webber was more talented, more skilled than Howard then, but Howard was an all-star via hard working, Webber wasn't. We never know if the King would be able to beat the Mavs with Webber, but the fact is they don't lose a bit without him this season, and in the past. The Kings have such a well run system that it makes almost any player look better than they actually is. Of course not every player can play in that system. It's really not a knock on him when comparing him with Coleman. If you remember, DC was called the best skilled PF for many years, he was practically unstoppable with the ball. But the fact remains that Coleman was a loser because he didn't live up to his potential AND his contract. Same thing with Webber. He probably has better talent than any PF in the league, even Duncan IMHO. (KG's game really resembles a SF). He was paid as a franchise player to carry the team. What did he accomplished so far? The Kings have proved that they are just as good without him. He is a ROLE player, not a franchise player. When you get paid as a franchise player, has the talent to be that kind of player, like D. Coleman was, but failed to deliever, I'd call him a LOSER! --daoshi
I know the Kings probably won't even take Steve for free, but the Rockets won't be better of with Webber. The reason I'm saying this is that in Francis, the Rockets are looking for someone who can be depended on as a franchise player, who can carry the team night-in and night-out. I'm not saying that Francis is that player right now, but that was the intension of the Rockets organization when they committed that long contract to him. Now you want to trade away Francis for a player who HAS PROVED again and again that he is not a franchise player, but a ROLE player with good stats on paper. Just look at the teams he has been associated with prior to the Kings, his track record speaks for itself. Listen, I'm not saying that Webber is a better/worse player than Francis here. I just try to make a point that Webber is not a franchise player the Rockets are looking for. If you want to trade your franchise player, you better get one in return. --daoshi
In 1992-93, the Golden State Warriors were 34-48. When they got Webber, they went 50-32 and Tim Hardaway was injured that entire year. Yes, Webber did destroy the Warriors when they decided to side with Nellie and traded him. The Warriors went 26-56 in 94-95 and have not finished with a winning record since. Maybe Webber was not the leader but as a rookie, he had a huge impact, winning ROY. Actually, I was wrong here. Webber's stint was not like Steve's stint. Because Webber actually led the Bullets to the playoffs for one season. And let's look at the list of players Steve has played with: Hakeem, Barkley, Mobley, Yao. The list of players Webber has played with: Howard, Strickland, and Wallace. Sure, you can say that Hakeem and Barkey were old, but Wallace was also young, with similar statistics. Also, Webber did make the All-Star team while with the Wizards (1997). Webber's first season was injury plagued with the Kings. But after that, he led them to the playoffs and their first winning record in 18 YEARS. They have had a winning record every year since. He has been an all-star four more times and was all-NBA and 4th in MVP voting in 2001. He should not get all the credit but the fact is, his teams have done reasonably well with him and without him, they've stunk. It is unreasonable because Coleman has not been a great/good player year in and year out. Webber does put up numbers every year in the pros. With the Kings, it doesn't mean anything if they keep winning without CWebb. Last year, Bibby was out and they still won. Two years ago, Peja was out and they still won. But Webber is considered the leader of a championship caliber team, something that "winners" like Marbury, Francis, Brand, and even McGrady can only wish to become.
The same Jason Kidd that often leads the league in assists and has twice in a row led his team to the NBA finals. The same Jason Kidd that is usually regarded as the best point guard in the league. If I went by the names of the players (I assume you mean reputations), then I would want to keep 3 time all-star Steve Francis. Why do people always talk about our record without Steve when it is suggested that we trade him? No one suggests that we should cut Steve. Do you really think we would lose to Phoenix by twenty if Francis was replaced by Marbury, or by Kidd? I take from your post that you watch the NBA, but it is quite apparent that you don't understand it. [/B][/QUOTE] So you're suggesting building the franchise with 30+ year old players, real good. Do you know what they're window is? And yes the same Jason Kidd that has won a total of 2 games the last 2 finals.
I see you working Smeg. You're on a crusade to bring optimism to the BBS (however misguided your crusade may be given the inherent pessimistic nature of sports fans). But please don't trim off the negatives in order to present a 100 percent positive outlook. The length of a max contract is just as important as the value of the contract. The Rockets have basically put everything they have into one Steve Francis. By giving him a decade long contract worth 9 to 10 million a year, the Rockets have said "This is our franchise player. The guy we want to build our team around." When making such a commitment to a player, you had better be sure you are right because if you are not, it is very likely that you will have no recourse but to trade your mistake away for lesser talent than you could have gotten for that player before you locked him up and there is no way to put a positive spin on a net loss. Given the general dislike that coaches, commentators, and former players seem to have around the league for Steve Francis, I think it is no longer debatable that the Rockets made a mistake in making Steve Francis their franchise player. While I think the analysis was more cloudy a year ago when the contract was signed, many people, including myself, did not feel Steve Francis was worth that kind of investment. So while you could have had a shot at a Francis/Mobley for Kobe deal two years ago, you may now have to settle for a side of rice pilaf for Francis and that is a poorly managed situation. I think Steve Francis is a 4 or 5 year contract type player at about $8million per year. Anything more than that at the time of the signing was too risky an investment in my opinion.
If a franchise anoints a guard as a franchise player with a franchise-worthy contract, that guard better be named Michael Jordan or else that franchise has doomed itself to mediocrity for the length of that contract.
