While bashing CD, some always like to throw out that the Rockets are hamstrung by bad contracts. I would beg to disagree. 1. First, other than the fact that all NBA players are overpaid, Steve is not overpaid, relative to other NBA salaries, as this thread proves. 2. The other two contracts often cited as horrible are Cato and MoT's. I would submit that they are probably now in line with the seasons they are having, the fact that a few years have gone by on their deals, and the fact that they are still under 30. Both probably have positive trade value now, of some degree. 3. The only player we have with truly negative trade value, due to the contract (i.e. we would have to give up something just to have someone take his contract off our hands) is Spoon. And we took him on to get rid of the only truly horrible contract we had, Moochie's. And he is even showing a spark, now. 4. We never would have been under the cap enough to sign unrestricted free agents with anything other than an exception. So the only thing "hamstringing" us is the luxury tax threshold, and come this summer, it probably won't hamstring us anymore, since there probably won't be a luxury tax next year. 5. A lot of other teams have a lot worse contracts. At least we don't have a Grant Hill albratross around our neck. Or look at all the money NJ paid to Deke and Mourning, who are no longer on their roster. Someone could cite numerous examples. 6. Finally, Dallas does deals all the time, while having one of the highest payrolls in the league. In other words, you need a few contracts with some size to them to swap for players with talent, which typically also have sizable salaries. So any personnel problem we have is not "bad contract" related. It would only be chemistry related. That is, we have a lot of talent, it might just not be the idea mix of talent.
Right. And and I'm not defending Steve Francis nearly so much as I'm saying that when you look at the list, he's not so bad. There are a ton of people on that list I'd rather have but just as many that make Steve Francis look like Michael Jordan.
I have no idea where you are coming from! You want to get rid of Steve because he doesn't get his teamates involved and because he shoots so badly, yet you're all over a point guard who shoots worse (and more often - proven over their equal length careers), who still turns the ball over plenty of times - but who gets 2 more assists per game. Of course having more assists per game is suddenly nullified (in your book) when the fact is pointed out that Francis out-assists most other PG's in the league... ...and this because you glorify assist to turnover ratio as if it is the benchmark - a turnover is a lost possession, an assist is not a gained possession. A high number of TO's is bad, but it has no direct correlation with assists at all! Assist/TO ratio is a useful measure of a 'playmaking' point guard (in the John Stockton mould), but not for a scoring/ team leading point guard. For the playmaking PG the TO does correlate to the assist because more often than not that is the sum of the players contribution (ie, their TO is the result of a 'failed assist' or losing the ball to the trap). However the modern PG (ie Marbury, Davis, Francis, Terry, Arenas, Wade etc) has a larger dossier than simply bringing the ball up the court - they are called upon to score, to penetrate to break down the zone etc. Naturally this results in more TO's (simple fact, the one who has moer touches has mroe TO's) - and this is true of the aforementioned players! Not only do they turn the ball over in the 'standard' way, but also in the 'scorers' way (that is, being stripped on a drive, trying an intercepted bail-out pass etc). Now I am NOT arguing that Francis does a good job of protecting the ball - I think he unecissarily turns the ball over once per game more than he ought to (the dribble off the foot, knee etc) - but I still hold that assist to turnover ratio is oftne given more credence than it ought to be. I also agree that Francis is having an off year - probably the result of a number of things - but even in his off year he is still one of the better players in the league and is still comparable to most of the other PG's running around. Worth the max? Comparing him to others who earn it, I think Smeg has shown the answer is 'yes'.
So how does SF not get the ball to Yao better than Parker does to Duncan if SF averages more assists.
Throwing it into the post doesn't normally get you assists does it? If Steve could run a competent fast break he'd have more assists, if he could pass it down to Yao for a high percentage shot, he'd probably have less. Steve averages 5 more mins. per game than Parker, is it a stretch to think that'd net him .6 more assists per game? BTW, how much more are we paying Steve than Parker, tell me that...
If only he were 10 years younger... *sigh* Maybe SF needs to workout with OUR old gaurds that dumped it into Dream... instead of the Kinicks old gaurds that dropped it off to Ewing. At least our old gaurds got a ring or two. I'm glad to see some players that really underachieve in comparison, make more money. Reality check.
...and this because you glorify assist to turnover ratio as if it is the benchmark - a turnover is a lost possession, an assist is not a gained possession. A high number of TO's is bad, but it has no direct correlation with assists at all! Assist/TO ratio is a useful measure of a 'playmaking' point guard (in the John Stockton mould), but not for a scoring/ team leading point guard. For the playmaking PG the TO does correlate to the assist because more often than not that is the sum of the players contribution (ie, their TO is the result of a 'failed assist' or losing the ball to the trap). However the modern PG (ie Marbury, Davis, Francis, Terry, Arenas, Wade etc) has a larger dossier than simply bringing the ball up the court - they are called upon to score, to penetrate to break down the zone etc. Naturally this results in more TO's (simple fact, the one who has moer touches has mroe TO's) - and this is true of the aforementioned players! Not only do they turn the ball over in the 'standard' way, but also in the 'scorers' way (that is, being stripped on a drive, trying an intercepted bail-out pass etc). 1) Forget for a moment what other overpaid players are making in this league. It is obvious that there are a lot of other overpaid players. But does the fact that Shawn Bradley is overpaid make it okay that Nick Van Exel is overpaid? Absolutely not, the premise that SF is not overpaid b/c there are others who are also not living up to their contracts is flawed. 2) Your reasoning about assist/TO seems to be spun in a way, albeit a creative one, to make it "okay" for SF to have such a high turnover rate. JKidd is all those things that you say SF is, yet he averages several more assists/game and about the same TO. WHat that means is that he is a better decision maker than SF. You will see him break down the D with penetration and run an efficient fast break. You won't see him dribble and jump into the air in front of 3 defenders. It is universally recognized among anlaysts, players, coaches, etc. (pretty much everybody involved in competitive basketball), that an efficient, play-making PG may be partly judged by the assist/TO ratio. 3) I am not a proponent of trading away SF right now, but I don't think we can continue to write off his shortcomings as a result of "the system," "his natural athleticism," "his youth" etc.
I'm pretty sure that I also said which in no way is a creative way to make it "okay" for SF to have such a high TO rate! The point of this thread was to show just how many players get the max (or thereabouts_ - and I DO think that it's fair to compare players according to their salaries - somone always seems to pay!
Oh god. You're going to make me list them. (also, I admit saying the make him look like Jordan is a bit far but I'll definitely stand by the fact I'd pay twice as much money for Francis than I would these guys) Ok, here goes: 4. Allan Houston (NY) ......... $15,937,500- 16 million dollars and all he can do is shoot. He makes steves defense look good and he's never heard of a rebound. At least if you look at Steves stats alone you'd believe he's a great all around basketball player worthy of such a contract. that certainly isn't the case with Houston. (that said if he was making like 5-7 million a year I'd love to see him at shooting guard for the Rockets but he isn't) 28. Damon Stoudamire (Por) ..... $12,375,000- under-sized and washed up but he's great for court tv. 29. Eddie Jones (Mia) .......... $12,333,750- not necessarily a bad ball player but he's always injured. I think it's pretty comparable to giving Cuttino Mobley max money. 32. Nick Van Exel (GS) ......... $11,956,625- never been consistent and has really seemed to be best off the bench. a max bench player. great. 18. Michael Finley (Dal) ....... $13,281,250- he may be a good player, but he's getting max to be what? the third or fourth option? maybe the fifth? 3. Rasheed Wallace (Por) ...... $17,000,000- Hi. I'm a 17 million dollar player that got knocked out of my position and my place as the teams primary scorer by a 21 year old kid. Did I mention I like to amass large amounts of technical fouls and smoke lots of weed? 8. Antonio McDyess (NY) ....... $13,500,000- the discrepancy between McDyess's level of play and Francis's really does make Francis look like Jordan..... because McDyess doesn't play. 19. Grant Hill (Orl) ........... $13,279,750- same thing as McDyess but worse because at least McDyess comes back for a couple of weeks every year. 19. Keith Van Horn (NY) ........ $13,279,750- Another guy who really does make Francis look like Jordan. 33. Tim Thomas (Mil) ........... $11,825,000- And you guys were pissed about the Mo Taylor and Kelvin Cato contracts. 44. Glenn Robinson (Phi) ....... $10,730,000- injury prone, one dimensional and doesn't seem to get along with other players either. Gotta love Big Dog. 8. Zydrunas Ilgauskas (Cle) ... $13,500,000- Makes Yao look like Wilt. 31. Vlade Divac (Sac) .......... $12,051,510- He's a good, reliable center but 12 million dollars? 45. Theo Ratliff (Atl) ......... $10,156,250- Always injured and even if he weren't, he just isn't that good. Decent rebounder and shot blocker. that's about it. MAYBE barely better than Cato. MAYBE. 48. Kerry Kittles (NJ) ......... $9,266,666- Who approved of this deal? I've got to know. 52. Gilbert Arenas (Was) ....... $8,536,000- Steve Francis Lite. 54. Jason Terry (Atl) .......... $8,333,333- I'd be lying if I said I've watched alot of this guy because I don't watch the Hawks, but judging by his stats and his teams record IN THE EAST, I'd rather have Francis for twice the money. hmmm... ok a few more cheaper ones then I'm done. 56. Wally Szczerbiak (Min) ..... $8,000,000 61. Derek Anderson (Por) ....... $7,794,000 62. Wesley Person (Por) ........ $7,700,000 68. Bonzi Wells (Mem) .......... $7,000,000 55. Raef LaFrentz (Bos) ........ $8,178,750 50. Toni Kukoc (Mil) ........... $9,056,250 63. Alan Henderson (Atl) ....... $7,682,188 64. Austin Croshere (Ind) ...... $7,610,000 49. Dale Davis (Por) ........... $9,061,875 51. Greg Ostertag (Uta) ........ $8,666,666 66. Marcus Camby (Den) ......... $7,250,000 All of those guys make Francis's contract look great. As to how many Rockets games I've watched this year. I've watched them all but maybe four or five at most.
Hmmmm, the grass is browner over there, so that makes my grass greener over here? Nice try... The issue of Francis's contract is a statement (from Les) that he's our "leader." That still doesn't change. If Francis contract was $18 mil a year he'd be over priced. If his contract was $5 mil a year, he be a "bargain." But guess what? He wouldn't be our "leader" and we'd be able to use the money saved for another "star." So...lets recap... Francis $10 mil a year = no championship Francis $13 mil a year = no championship Francis $15 mil a year = no championship Francis $17 mil a year = no championship Get it? I wont matter. As long as he's deemed our "leader" it will never work. He makes the game harder for himself as well as others. No court vision, high turnover rate. Bring in more talent and watch how he'd make their games suffer. It's not what's in Francis wallet, or what's in other players wallets, it's about what is NOT in Francis brain. The ability to learn the PG position efficiently while holding the title of "leader." Come full circle and we are back to square one. We'd still have Francis and his baggage. So, what are we going to do? Give him time? What? I'd really like to know...
Cannot agree more. People want to make it seem like SF's contract is bargain based on the decisions of other bone-headed GMs. What is that all about? The ROX, like all organizations, have made bad contract decisions. I'm not saying that SF's contract is necessarily a bad decision, but I am saying that, THIS SEASON, he is not earning max player money. Who cares what sorry players in this league are making max money? We should be concerned with what our players are making in our town and what THEY are producing.
Yes, it does. Why? Because his assist have never risen. And they wont. You'd think that over the last 5 years, maybe, just maybe that he's get 4apg, then 5apg, then 6apg, then 7apg...you know? Improvement? The reason that his assist do not go up over the years is because of his inherent bad court vision and inability to learn. He has a narrow mind-set. And that inability to learn is what is causing him to continue to turn the ball over the same way over and over again. The same way that he's been doing since his rookie season. Come see me when Francis gets 7 assist per game. And don't say that he can't get 7 assist per game because he's "busy" trying to score. He's can't score very easily because his level of difficulty on scoring is so bad, plus he can only focus on one thing at a time; bad court vision and bad shot selection. Wham on both counts!
Let's keep Francis. He still has the opportunity to develop into one of the best point guards ever. And Yao has the potential to become one of the top centers in NBA history. Let's not panic. Francis just needs to modify his attitude, think about the team (group, not individual goal) execute what he has realized and that will translate to winning, ultimately we hope, the championship. Maybe a few more talks with Oscar Robertson will get him to see the light. I hope the Big O is there during the All-Star break.
I partly agree, in that it is still a little too early to trade him away. However, he is very unlikely to even approach the greatest point gaurds in history. But that doesn't matter, we don't need that out of him. We need him to average 15 pts, 6-7 assists, about 5-6 boards, and not more than 2-2.5 turnovers/game. If he can do that, become a better distributor, and stop making stupid decisions on the court, then maybe we can have some success. But we have to accept him for what he is, not what he MAY become one day.
No PG has ever developed at this late stage. Francis is what he is, and he is only going to go down hill. He is JR Rider without the splif. DD
